Nobody is spitting...The debate is why the soldier is granted immunity for their responsibility in murder for what in most cases were offensive and unjust wars? When does the soldier become morally and legally responsible for their actions? When can the people start saying "hey soldiers, stop pulling the triggers and dropping the bombs"?
The best example of the double standard would be Box a Rox's condemnation of George Zimmerman for killing Trayvon Martin what was arguably in self defense, yet his endless support for soldiers that dropped bombs on many innocent Iraqi, Afghani, and Pakistani civilians in PURELY OFFENSIVE AND AGGRESSIVE attacks. And he doesn't even call for war crimes to be pursued against our generals or politicians. Why? Those lives are meaningless?
Some people don't differentiate between government sanctioned murder and non government sanctioned murder. I believe the majority of Americans have been desensitized to violence and murder and have accepted the "official" policy of preemptive murder. Not to mention, the state controlled media has done a great job keeping the death and destruction our military spreads throughout the world from the public eye.
Then Nuremberg defense. I was just following orders.
First of all, spitting is now a crime. Exposing others to bodily fluids is more serious than in the 60s, due to AIDS. That’s true, but back then it was a means of expression.
Everyone has the right to not want people killed, and the right to express it to those who are members of the group that actually do the killing. Here’s the fallacy…because we wore the uniform we wanted to kill people….TRUTH, we had no desire to kill or be killed. Many of us volunteered to wear the uniform, but that doesn’t mean we did so to kill or volunteer to go to war….I know I didn’t
You chose to represent the group that was performing the killings by wearing their uniform. I chose to join the military for other reasons than what we have been condemned for, but that doesn’t matter….we were stereotyped, period. In other words, we were not individuals, we were part of a group of KILLERS!!!!
Had a war actually been declared and a fight to conquer the other country, things may have been a lot different. Agree 100%, but they wouldn’t have been a lot different…there would always be those that were against it, regardless.
Killing people who never did anything to any American has become standard American military procedure. Can’t say I agree or disagree, I only see what is going on in the world but never claim to understand all the motives and unknowns behind it all.
During an actual declared war, a person expects this kind of behavior from both sides in the war. Unfortunate but true.
Viet Nam was a war based on propaganda. Ignorant Communist fear mongering propaganda. Our initial involvement was to assist with the French action and intent was to be advisors, only…things progressed from there. This was a war of BIG BUSINESS and profits, PERIOD!!!
Is Iraq a better place? Speaking to several Iraqis at work, they say yes….do I think so, again not enough true info for me to provide an educated answer. I would only hope they are better and it wasn't all for nothing.
Is Viet Nam? Obviously yes, but not because we fought to make their country better for them. I think the war could have gone on, and maybe even a claimed victory at some point. What happened, however, was the US approaching them for a sit down to resolve it all, with stipulations and an agreed peace treaty. At least we can claim ownership of that one positive action.
Korea? I think our continued presence in S. Korea is a deterrent and prevention.
People that support people who kill anyone their commander feels deserves it will get no support from me. Because you think that just wearing the uniform makes us killers…trained, yes, but that doesn’t make us killers. Are people who buy guns for self protection really killers too because they arm themselves? Some people could equate gun ownership with that….I don’t believe it, but then again, I am judging the person and not the fact they own a gun…..you and others are judging us by wearing a uniform and not as a person who has opinions, ideas and purposes that likely do not mesh with the BABY KILLER mentality.
They will get my freedom of expression in their faces. So what you are saying is that you would punch them or spit on them, still!!!!
So am not sure you actually directly answered these questions: Why does anyone feel they have the right to attack and spit on people because they disagree with what is going on half way around the world? How is spitting on me or any other soldier going to resolve the anger over the war? Why did they feel they had the right to do this...what gives them the almighty power of judgment?
JUST BECAUSE SISSY SAYS SO DOESN'T MAKE IT SO...BUT HE THINKS IT DOES!!!!! JUST BECAUSE MC1 SAYS SO DOESN'T MAKE IT SO!!!!!
Then Nuremberg defense. I was just following orders.
Still alive and well.
But I'm not allowed to argue that point. Joebxr didn't like my reasoning behind why people may respond to soldiers that are either returning or being deployed toVietnam by spitting on them and calling them baby killers. Basically, the "hippies" do that because they didn't believe putting on a government uniform exempts that individual from their participation and support in the killing of innocent Vietnamese.
Was anybody at a high level tried for the war crimes committed in Vietnam?
Nobody is spitting...The debate is why the soldier is granted immunity for their responsibility in murder for what in most cases were offensive and unjust wars? When does the soldier become morally and legally responsible for their actions? When can the people start saying "hey soldiers, stop pulling the triggers and dropping the bombs"?
The best example of the double standard would be Box a Rox's condemnation of George Zimmerman for killing Trayvon Martin what was arguably in self defense, yet his endless support for soldiers that dropped bombs on many innocent Iraqi, Afghani, and Pakistani civilians in PURELY OFFENSIVE AND AGGRESSIVE attacks. And he doesn't even call for war crimes to be pursued against our generals or politicians. Why? Those lives are meaningless?
Some people don't differentiate between government sanctioned murder and non government sanctioned murder. I believe the majority of Americans have been desensitized to violence and murder and have accepted the "official" policy of preemptive murder. Not to mention, the state controlled media has done a great job keeping the death and destruction our military spreads throughout the world from the public eye.
Don't ya just love it when Cicero defines my views?
Let me try it and see how it goes...
"Cicero loves to play with naked old men's balls in the summer time when they are all hot and sweaty!"
NO? That isn't quite accurate??? Really??? So ya mean that I just can't define what other posters views are? I can't do what Cicero loves to do? Jezzzz! That doesn't seem fair.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. John Kenneth Galbraith
Don't ya just love it when Cicero defines my views?
Let me try it and see how it goes...
"Cicero loves to play with naked old men's balls in the summer time when they are all hot and sweaty!"
NO? That isn't quite accurate??? Really??? So ya mean that I just can't define what other posters views are? I can't do what Cicero loves to do? Jezzzz! That doesn't seem fair.
Box, you have 10,194 posts. You've done an excellent job defining your own views.
I don't recall ever making a post on the topic of old men's balls. Sound more like your YMCA steam room fantasy.
But I'm not allowed to argue that point. Joebxr didn't like my reasoning behind why people may respond to soldiers that are either returning or being deployed toVietnam by spitting on them and calling them baby killers. Basically, the "hippies" do that because they didn't believe putting on a government uniform exempts that individual from their participation and support in the killing of innocent Vietnamese.
Was anybody at a high level tried for the war crimes committed in Vietnam?
No I take exception because you did not address the questions asked with answers that are directly related. You didn't read the whole thread, obviously, becuase the point is that just the fact we wore a uniform made us fit the mold of baby killers...we were judged for a uniform and not as individuals. The haters felt they knew us enough to make judgements, regardless of facts or truth. SO questions again were: Why does anyone feel they have the right to attack and spit on people because they disagree with what is going on half way around the world? How is spitting on me or any other soldier going to resolve the anger over the war? Why did they feel they had the right to do this...what gives them the almighty power of judgment?
JUST BECAUSE SISSY SAYS SO DOESN'T MAKE IT SO...BUT HE THINKS IT DOES!!!!! JUST BECAUSE MC1 SAYS SO DOESN'T MAKE IT SO!!!!!
I can't speak for Joe's experiences, but I can post about my own. Before going to Vietnam, I was stationed at Camp Pendleton, which is near Los Angeles California. We would take a bus from Oceanside into LA. When the bus would enter the LA bus station, before any passengers would get off the bus, two MP's would get on the bus and announce that only civilians could get off the bus. All military personnel, in uniform or not had to stay on the bus. The MP's would then stand at the bus exit and question any one in uniform or who had a MSMC haircut. Once the civilians were off the bus, it would go a few blocks to the USO where we could exit the bus and buy bus tickets to any where we wanted to go. The MP's at the USO explained that there had been a lot of fights between those opposed to the war, and the Marines in the bus station. Since they couldn't control the civilians, the only way to protect both the Marines and the civilians was to make the bus station off limits. Not a fair way to treat Marines, but typical of how problems were handled then.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. John Kenneth Galbraith
Box, you have 10,194 posts. You've done an excellent job defining your own views.
I don't recall ever making a post on the topic of old men's balls....
Cicero, You have over 9000 posts. You've also done an excellent job of defining your own views. Just as you so often do... Your version of my views seldom represents MY VIEWS, but more closely supports yours.
My version of your playing with old men's balls is about as accurate as your rendition of my views. Post your own views if you want to but please, leave my opinion to me.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. John Kenneth Galbraith
No I take exception because you did not address the questions asked with answers that are directly related. You didn't read the whole thread, obviously, becuase the point is that just the fact we wore a uniform made us fit the mold of baby killers...we were judged for a uniform and not as individuals.
The answer lies in the question.
I'm going to preempt this comment by saying this example doesn't in anyway directly parallel the U.S. military. Just an example of how uniforms take away all individuality and give an individual a collective reputation.
Would you say some Nazi's were good people?
Quoted Text
u·ni·form (yn-fôrm) adj. 1. Always the same, as in character or degree; unvarying. 2. Conforming to one principle, standard, or rule; consistent. 3. Being the same as or consonant with another or others. 4. Unvaried in texture, color, or design. n. 1. A distinctive outfit intended to identify those who wear it as members of a specific group. 2. One set of such an outfit.
BT, absolutely true...personal was n 1968...I'm not looking for anything except a honest discussin about a topic that has been underlying becuase of some other statements in the forum. Of course, there's always a clown like TOMMY that wants to call people liars....so his comments are useless.
Your question isn't as pointed as you think. There is much more attached to the that 'action of those times'. There was a whole hell of a lot going on during the hippie generation..... A LOT!!!
Spitting, burning the flag, burning bras, the sexual revolution, rampant drugs, demonstrations on most college campuses, three assassinations in less then 10 years, watergate......and the bullsh!t list goes on and on!
Spitting was considered 'freedom of speech' just like burning the flag was.....like it or not....that was the hippie societyof that time.
And again......those same left over hippies that were anti-war.....are now destroying america as we know it....and involved in wars we shouldn't be in......as vietnam was.
Wan't there a DRAFT for the vietnam 'conflict'?
When the INSANE are running the ASYLUM In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule. -- Friedrich Nietzsche
“How fortunate for those in power that people never think.” Adolph Hitler
I'm going to preempt this comment by saying this example doesn't in anyway directly parallel the U.S. military. Just an example of how uniforms take away all individuality and give an individual a collective reputation.
Would you say some Nazi's were good people?
So stupid and typical of you!
JUST BECAUSE SISSY SAYS SO DOESN'T MAKE IT SO...BUT HE THINKS IT DOES!!!!! JUST BECAUSE MC1 SAYS SO DOESN'T MAKE IT SO!!!!!
And cic is correct.........when indoctrinated into the military....you are no longer an individual.....you are government property with a name, rank and serial number.....PERIOD!!!
So with that said....i'd have to believe that when someone spat on a soldier...they were in fact spitting on their government. I don't believe for one minute that it was personal....so to say. But folks didn't think for themselves back then either. Like today the country is lead around like sheep.....nothing new under the sun.
When the INSANE are running the ASYLUM In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule. -- Friedrich Nietzsche
“How fortunate for those in power that people never think.” Adolph Hitler
]Here’s the fallacy…because we wore the uniform we wanted to kill people….TRUTH, we had no desire to kill or be killed. Many of us volunteered to wear the uniform, but that doesn’t mean we did so to kill or volunteer to go to war….I know I didn’t
I chose to join the military for other reasons than what we have been condemned for, but that doesn’t matter….we were stereotyped, period. In other words, we were not individuals, we were part of a group of KILLERS!!!!
You swore allegiance the these killers. Being Hitler's bookkeeper is guilt by support.
During an actual declared war, a person expects this kind of behavior from both sides in the war. Unfortunate but true.
Our initial involvement was to assist with the French action and intent was to be advisors, only…things progressed from there. This was a war of BIG BUSINESS and profits, PERIOD!!!
Is Iraq a better place? again not enough true info for me to provide an educated answer.
Viet Nam
I think the war could have gone on, and maybe even a claimed victory at some point. What happened, however, was the US approaching them for a sit down to resolve it all, with stipulations and an agreed peace treaty. At least we can claim ownership of that one positive action.
People that support people who kill anyone their commander feels deserves it will get no support from me. Because you think that just wearing the uniform makes us killers
Guilt by voluntary membership. If you were drafted, that would be an acceptable defense to me. Would being a voluntary member of aL queda and supporting terrorism make a person guilty? Of course it would.
.you and others are judging us by wearing a uniform and not as a person who has opinions, ideas and purposes that likely do not mesh with the BABY KILLER mentality.
Yes we are. If you wear a white robe with pointed head gear we would also judge you as a supporter of the KKK. Wearing a military uniform is a declaration of allegiance and support to the entire group.
They will get my freedom of expression in their faces. [b]So what you are saying is that you would punch them or spit on them, still!!!!
You are making claims that are not yours to make. I say freedom of expression and you interpret it as punch and spit. That is not even close to rational.
So am not sure you actually directly answered these questions:
Why does anyone feel they have the right to attack and spit on people because they disagree with what is going on half way around the world?
Because making us accomplices to your actions by association, by virtue of being American citizens is disgusting and offensive to us. Because it makes us feel like you are spitting on our right to not be labeled Imperialist American murderers.
How is spitting on me or any other soldier going to resolve the anger over the war?
It's called physics. Actions equals reactions. You support and take, perhaps in an administrative manner, part in the death of others, that the world will judge me, as an American citizen as being a supporter of these actions. If you don't want the reactions, stop the actions.
Will it resolve the anger over the war, not a chance. What would resolve the anger would be an admission of wrongful and unnecessary participation.
You're the one full of $hit...fact is fact. Were you part of that era? Were you in the Military then? More importantly, were you at Grand Central that night. Maybe you are good at lies and fabrication for selfish reasons, but I'm not...and here you are, just like those Hippies, judging me becuase of what I wrote, calling me a liar.
I lived in NYC at the time, and at no time were there protesters INSIDE GCS, because as an important part of the civil, and military infrastructure, it's just not tolerated period. Ever. I know at least 5 people close to me, that were in Vietnam, 2 of them being LRPs, (the real deal), and people like you just piss them off.
Do you know how you can tell if someone wasn't in combat? They talk about it.
Your question isn't as pointed as you think. There is much more attached to the that 'action of those times'. There was a whole hell of a lot going on during the hippie generation..... A LOT!!!
Spitting, burning the flag, burning bras, the sexual revolution, rampant drugs, demonstrations on most college campuses, three assassinations in less then 10 years, watergate......and the bullsh!t list goes on and on!
Spitting was considered 'freedom of speech' just like burning the flag was.....like it or not....that was the hippie societyof that time.
And again......those same left over hippies that were anti-war.....are now destroying america as we know it....and involved in wars we shouldn't be in......as vietnam was.
Wan't there a DRAFT for the vietnam 'conflict'?
You are right and there was conscription then also....lottery numbers were used if you were not employed, going to school or had more than child dependant (I think that was also one of the criteria).
JUST BECAUSE SISSY SAYS SO DOESN'T MAKE IT SO...BUT HE THINKS IT DOES!!!!! JUST BECAUSE MC1 SAYS SO DOESN'T MAKE IT SO!!!!!
Logged
