NOPE! But I wouldn't try to tell a Catholic Priest what it's like to BE a Catholic priest unless I had much more experience in that field.
But you do hold Catholic Priest's accountable for the abuse right? I mean, you don't have to be a Priest to understand why molestation is so wrong, and how the leadership covering it up is wrong. I don't understand how the soldier and the commanding officers and the government as a whole isn't held to that same standard. It truly boggles my mind how illegal, and undeclared wars were fought, and many Americans died, yet, the soldier and former soldier still consents to that same government as if that's just part of doing business. It amazes me.
But you do hold Catholic Priest's accountable for the abuse right? I mean, you don't have to be a Priest to understand why molestation is so wrong, and how the leadership covering it up is wrong. I don't understand how the soldier and the commanding officers and the government as a whole isn't held to that same standard. It truly boggles my mind how illegal, and undeclared wars were fought, and many Americans died, yet, the soldier and former soldier still consents to that same government as if that's just part of doing business. It amazes me.
Over and over again, Cicero blames the grunts on the ground for what is a Political decision. Maybe Cic thinks every morning the US military should have a vote to see if we want to defend our country today.
Cic is telling us how much he is lost on this issue and how far from reality he really is on it: "It truly boggles my mind " Yup. Cic can't understand the military no matter how hard he tries. "It amazes me. " Again, Cic is telling us what I've been telling him on every military post he makes... He has no idea! and by these posts, he agrees with me.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. John Kenneth Galbraith
And more: If I recall, you are former military...For being a tough soldier boy, Soldier boy??? Really Cic? Again you say you don't hold any hostility toward the US military yet the term you used for a man who put his life on the line for you (even if you don't deserve it) is "soldier boy"? Again... if you treat your dad with such disrespect, I understand why he never explained his experience to you.
Really, that's hostility?
For being a liberal, you use the same arguments that conservatives do when it comes to the military. You CAN NOT talk about the military critically without being accused of being unpatriotic, un-American, traitorous, are the array of descriptions to shut up the criticism. The reason for that is, the neo conservatives and the liberals are BOTH statists and defend the state and government at all costs.
For being a liberal, you use the same arguments that conservatives do when it comes to the military. You CAN NOT talk about the military critically without being accused of being unpatriotic, un-American, traitorous, are the array of descriptions to shut up the criticism. The reason for that is, the neo conservatives and the liberals are BOTH statists and defend the state and government at all costs.
I can talk about the military and often do: 1. The military weapons budget for Cold War items should be cut. Which is way different than saying what a person feels or does in the military: 2.You were just following illegal orders to kill indiscriminately, killing on orders from your commanding officers.
You seem to see no difference between them. You really are lost on this subject and the more you post on it the more it shows. You're telling Lance Armstrong how to ride a bike... and Lance is laughing at your ignorance.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. John Kenneth Galbraith
Over and over again, Cicero blames the grunts on the ground for what is a Political decision.
It's not blame, I understand the indoctrination process that the young mind goes through. That is why they recruit young pliable minds. What I don't understand are the veterans that have been through it and have perspective and have read books like "war is a racket", and still support the government that continues to wage these illegal, immoral, wars. And the best is you, who explained away the prosecution of Bush's illegal war in Iraq resulting in hundreds of thousands of dead human beings as being too difficult politically. I mean - WOW! You really care.
It's not blame, I understand the indoctrination process that the young mind goes through.
Nope you don't understand anything about the issue, but you think you do. "I understand the indoctrination process" Really? How do you understand that? How do you presume to know what that process is like? You read a book? Some patriot told you? By your every word... you show that you have no idea, yet you think you are an expert.
Let me sum it up like this: "I understand the indoctrination process"... Cic... You don't even know what it is that you don't know.
I've wasted too much time on this with you. It's like discussing a sunset to a blind man, and the blind man is telling me that I'm wrong, but he really knows what it looks like.
A pointless discussion. I'm done.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. John Kenneth Galbraith
Isn't the point of boot camp to break a person down to rebuild him, I don't think anyone would deny that, they admit it openly. Our soldiers are taught to obey the higher ranks and to follow their orders, if they don't they face consequences, it should be no surprise these men do things they might know is wrong because of the fear of consequences. They were taught not to question orders, to obey every command given, not to think but to act.
"In the beginning of a change, the Patriot is a scarce man, brave, hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a Patriot."
Isn't the point of boot camp to break a person down to rebuild him, I don't think anyone would deny that, they admit it openly. Our soldiers are taught to obey the higher ranks and to follow their orders, if they don't they face consequences, it should be no surprise these men do things they might know is wrong because of the fear of consequences. They were taught not to question orders, to obey every command given, not to think but to act.
Define break a person down...just what does that really mean? I' ve heard that so many times before and don't understand what it means. I wasn't broken down, I was built up, taught to understand what teamwork meant and how valuable all lives are, enemy or not. My drill instructors, taught us skills, showed us how to survivie, and yes how to follow orders, but also how to validate orders. We questioned more orders in Nam than you might ever believe. It was easy in my situation to question and ignore orders if I felt they were placing my team in jeopardy....brass never knew any better. So you see, we do have brains and can think for ourselves and do make decisions intended to survive and help.
JUST BECAUSE SISSY SAYS SO DOESN'T MAKE IT SO...BUT HE THINKS IT DOES!!!!! JUST BECAUSE MC1 SAYS SO DOESN'T MAKE IT SO!!!!!
Define break a person down...just what does that really mean? I' ve heard that so many times before and don't understand what it means. I wasn't broken down, I was built up, taught to understand what teamwork meant and how valuable all lives are, enemy or not. My drill instructors, taught us skills, showed us how to survivie, and yes how to follow orders, but also how to validate orders. We questioned more orders in Nam than you might ever believe. It was easy in my situation to question and ignore orders if I felt they were placing my team in jeopardy....brass never knew any better. So you see, we do have brains and can think for ourselves and do make decisions intended to survive and help.
That might have been your case but to many it wasn't. My father who was a marine told me he once tried to respond to a order and the next thing he knew he was half way across the room when the instructor punched him in the chest. He told me he learned quickly not to question anything after that. He can laugh about it now but back then he was probably scared sh1tless. Again that is breaking a person down, it sent a warning not to question but to obey and if you don't obey there is consequences.
"In the beginning of a change, the Patriot is a scarce man, brave, hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a Patriot."
Define break a person down...just what does that really mean? I' ve heard that so many times before and don't understand what it means. I wasn't broken down, I was built up, taught to understand what teamwork meant and how valuable all lives are, enemy or not. My drill instructors, taught us skills, showed us how to survivie, and yes how to follow orders, but also how to validate orders. We questioned more orders in Nam than you might ever believe. It was easy in my situation to question and ignore orders if I felt they were placing my team in jeopardy....brass never knew any better. So you see, we do have brains and can think for ourselves and do make decisions intended to survive and help.
The question is...And this isn't really for you but more for Box. If Box and many liberals believed it was clear early in the Iraq war invasion that the war was illegal and people were screaming to charge Bush and Dick Cheney as war criminals - Why did most of the soldiers continue to kill in what a former war veteran(box a rox) called an illegal war? They are either ignorant and were unable to see it as clearly as Box, or their training to follow orders and their blind trust of their commanding officers kept them following orders to kill. I mean, box defending the soldiers in the Iraq invasion and excusing the non prosecution of Bush and Cheney is equivalent to excusing the German invasion of Poland and not wasting time with the Nuremberg Trials.
Nope you don't understand anything about the issue, but you think you do. "I understand the indoctrination process" Really? How do you understand that? How do you presume to know what that process is like? You read a book? Some patriot told you? By your every word... you show that you have no idea, yet you think you are an expert.
Let me sum it up like this: "I understand the indoctrination process"... Cic... You don't even know what it is that you don't know.
I've wasted too much time on this with you. It's like discussing a sunset to a blind man, and the blind man is telling me that I'm wrong, but he really knows what it looks like.
A pointless discussion. I'm done.
Thanks for offering your services to this discussion. It was very educational and helps bring clarity as to why America continues to fight these undeclared unconstitutional offensive wars with very little public outcry.
The question is...And this isn't really for you but more for Box. If Box and many liberals believed it was clear early in the Iraq war invasion that the war was illegal and people were screaming to charge Bush and Dick Cheney as war criminals - Why did most of the soldiers continue to kill in what a former war veteran(box a rox) called an illegal war? They are either ignorant and were unable to see it as clearly as Box, or their training to follow orders and their blind trust of their commanding officers kept them following orders to kill. I mean, box defending the soldiers in the Iraq invasion and excusing the non prosecution of Bush and Cheney is equivalent to excusing the German invasion of Poland and not wasting time with the Nuremberg Trials.
Box wants them to follow orders even if it is clearly wrong, look how he talks down about the Oath Keepers for not Obeying orders, to Box that is a terrorist act not to obey the orders of a higher up
"In the beginning of a change, the Patriot is a scarce man, brave, hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a Patriot."
The question is for you Cicero...did you believe it was clear early in the Iraq war invasion that the war was illegal and believe people were screaming to charge Bush and Dick Cheney as war criminals...then what did you do about it? Did you sit behind your TV and just watch everything, or did you get up out of your chair and put down the game controller and do something productive about it....anything, and I don't mean complain on the forum or tell your neighbors how it should be....I mean actually did something about it?
JUST BECAUSE SISSY SAYS SO DOESN'T MAKE IT SO...BUT HE THINKS IT DOES!!!!! JUST BECAUSE MC1 SAYS SO DOESN'T MAKE IT SO!!!!!
Isn't the point of boot camp to break a person down to rebuild him, I don't think anyone would deny that, they admit it openly. Our soldiers are taught to obey the higher ranks and to follow their orders, if they don't they face consequences, it should be no surprise these men do things they might know is wrong because of the fear of consequences. They were taught not to question orders, to obey every command given, not to think but to act.
Henry, I often hear from civilians what the military was like from their perspective. I don't speak for all Marines but I speak for myself. Follow orders blindly! I hear that often, but that's not quite it.
In the Marines, you are obliged to follow 'lawful' orders... BUT, You are also obliged to disobey an unlawful order. If you are given an order that you know is not lawful (legal) you don't have a choice... you must disobey that order. When ordered to do something that you know is wrong, you MUST disobey. Often the problem occurs when there is a grey area and one party or the other is unsure if the order is lawful.
"To break a person down and rebuild him" again... sorta. Certainly to break down the individual to conform and obey is part of it... especially at first. But as time goes by you see a deeper meaning... A greater cause than yourself. Consider that you are asking some of these men to likely die in this endeavor, simply making it an "order that must be obeyed" loses it's effectiveness if obeying may mean death.
I don't know exactly how to explain it but I've read it in print a few times. A cause greater than yourself, is the best that I can do. Every Marine is there for every other in his squad, but also for every Marine who was ever in the Corps. In the end, you fight and die for each other. Kinda sappy I know but true.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. John Kenneth Galbraith
Rep. Paul Ryan dodged a question about whether abortions should be available to women who are raped.
Said Ryan: "Well, look, I'm proud of my pro-life record. And I stand by my pro-life record in Congress. It's something I'm proud of. But Mitt Romney is the top of the ticket and Mitt Romney will be president and he will set the policy of the Romney administration."
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. John Kenneth Galbraith
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