Box, you couldn't give away a house in Schenectady if you tried. People are leaving the City, they just leave in foreclosure and bankruptcy.

Please stop telling people to just 'sell and move' because it's a dream of many a City taxpayer, but not a reality.

The only people able to move into the City are non-profits and tax-exempt businesses.

Pony up Box. Buy a property in the City instead of standing on a used soap box.  

Quoted from Box A Rox

~ "The cost of living in Florida is so vastly lower than up here"
Paying for AC or paying for heat... there is little difference.

I think if you go do a cost analysis per KWhr, you'll see that NY energy costs are much higher.

2. New York
Taxes paid by residents as pct. of income: 12.1%
Total state and local taxes collected: $243.9 billion
Pct. of total taxes paid by residents: 71.4%
Pct. of total taxes paid by non-residents: 28.6%

New York places much of its tax burden on residents from other states. Consider, for example, the amount of state revenue derived from New York City tourism, or those who commute to the city for work. Despite this, state residents maintain the second largest tax burden in the country. The state has one of the highest state and local tax collections per capita, an average of $6,884. It has one of the highest combined averages local and state sales tax rates — 8.3%. The Big Apple also has a number of exceptionally high excise taxes, such as its $4.35 tax on each pack of cigarettes, the highest rate in the country. Additionally, the state has exceptionally high property tax rates. According to the Census Bureau, the top ten counties in the U.S. with the highest property taxes as a percentage of home values are all in New York.

1. New Jersey
Taxes paid by residents as pct. of income: 12.2%
Total state and local taxes collected: $85.9 billion
Pct. of total taxes paid by residents: 79.5%
Pct. of total taxes paid by non-residents: 20.5%

New Jersey residents have a higher tax burden than those of any other state. As a percent of their income, taxes in the Garden State were 12.2% in 2009, nearly double that of Alaska. Like Connecticut, much of this tax burden comes from state residents who commute to New York City and pay taxes there as well. This illustrates how a state resident contributes to the tax base of multiple states. Although not reflected in the percent of income residents pay in state and local taxes, it is nonetheless an additional burden commuters have to bear. According to Tax Foundation, the state has the third-worst environment for business in the country, with a corporate tax rate of 9%. It also has an above-average sales tax, as well as one of the highest rates in the country for cigarettes and liquor.

Quoted from Box A Rox

I live in NY and can afford a boat... several.

~ "Up here in NY, the retirees are almost broke after paying their taxes"
I'm sure that is true for some retirees, but not most that I know.

~ "The cost of living in Florida is so vastly lower than up here"
Paying for AC or paying for heat... there is little difference.

Obviously the "most" that you know are public sector retirees who are getting pensions of $60,000 and up.    Because even GE doesn't give a pension that generous and I believe they eliminated health and prescription coverage in retirement to supplement medicare.   Retail, the hotel industry, the private nursing homes, the small businesses, they don't provide anything in the way of retirement income to allow a couple to pay $7,000 a year in property taxes, probably $10,000 for medicare supplement, etc.

In Florida you pay for AC.   In NY you pay for AC (or are you sitting at home in 90 degree temps and 70 degree dewpoints with no AC nor dehumidifer?)   In Florida virtually no heating bills, In NY, you're probably paying heat for 4-5 months at least.

Oh, Box, I DON'T disagree with you on things like the scenery when you mention flat vs hills for example.   Hey, winter skiers like us know the importance of hills, of mountains.  And yes, the color up here is beautiful in the fall.  And being high up in some of the peaks in the Adirondacks is breathtaking.   One not even go far far up north, just go up to Cathead Mt, it's close by and then hike up it.   But where in NY do you get to see a sunrise or sunset over the ocean, unless you go to Long Island and that's expensive.  Where in NY can you go deep sea fishing year-round?   And at least if you go to FL and it doesn't cost you $7,000 and up for taxes you can actually afford a boat to go out on the ocean with.  And actually, for rivers, really no one wants to swim in the Hudson, and look at Collins lake which is closed, and look at Lake George which has some kind of problem now, and Saratoga lake had, or maybe still has the weeds on the top.   Sure, they can get a freeze in Florida, but it doesn't last long, a retiree down there with a low property tax bill can afford a swimming pool and probably use it 10 months of the year.  Even Arizona is a good place to retire too if you like the hotter weather.  

Everyone has different interests for retirement, but being in NY costs so much more, and since the vast majority of retirees do not have lavish pensions with health insurance on top of that and a 401K besides (because government employees can have those in addition to lavish pensions), the vast majority of retirees cannot afford the high taxes   Certainly not all want to move, but most can't move because they can't sell their house and Schenectady is probably the worst to try to leave

Many retirees move south UNTIL they get sick and when they do get sick they come back to New York where the medical care and nursing home is far superior.  

Personally, I think Florida sucks ... just a huge swamp that people have tried to build on ... someday it will all return to the sea.

Quoted from JackBauer

I think if you go do a cost analysis per KWhr, you'll see that NY energy costs are much higher.

That may be true Jack... I'll gladly pay the difference if it means I don't have to live in Florida.  

I was in Florida a few years back on a vacation to Disney World and to visit relatives.  When talking with
snowbirds & locals there, they are amazed to find out that there are Americans who consider
living in Florida to be a punishment... not at all the way they see it.   They view Florida as a paradise and
think that everyone else must see it that way too.

I was in the Orlando area one Christmas... 19 degrees!
I was visiting the Gulf Coast one July on business... in the high 90's 5 of 6 days.  I talked with some teens
there who had summer jobs cutting lawns at a nearby trailer park.  The owner of the park would pick up
the kids at 6AM to mow lawns... Because of the heat, they had to have the lawns done by 10AM or risk
heat exhaustion.  Not my idea of "paradise"!

Quoted from DemocraticVoiceOfReason

Many retirees move south UNTIL they get sick and when they do get sick they come back to New York where the medical care and nursing home is far superior.  

Personally, I think Florida sucks ... just a huge swamp that people have tried to build on ... someday it will all return to the sea.

Well, it's obvious that many do NOT get sick and come back to New York or that would be a well known publicized fact, in all the newspapers around.   And of course, you won't provide us with any EVIDENCE.   And that does NOT mean the ones that establish their official residence in FL or nearby southern areas while coming to "visit" in NY for a few months of the year.

Older people really should not be taking care of the snow, and around here, many cannot afford to pay someone to do it, not when they are paying upwards of $7,000 a year in taxes.

People are much happier when they don't have to pay a third, or half, their pension to property and school taxes.   But of course they are paying the high taxes so some elderly people get pensions from school systems close to $60K a year with annual raises.

Some people, DV prefer tropical climates and lifestyle, many move to the Carribean, not just Florida, the beautiful clear blue waters, the coral reefs---which ARE in Florida, you simply cannot find anything like that in NY---but then you wouldn't go snorkeling anyway.   And still other people prefer the cold and wouldn't mind retiring to Alaska.   And then there are those who like the change of season.

And judging by the horrible ratings at government nursing homes up in these parts, I can't say that nursing home care is better up here, though the privates like Baptist, Mercy Care, OLH, and others provide superior care and their patients ARE medicaid

Everyone has different interests in retirement, different likes in climate and activities, but it's an absolute guarantee that if you leave NY in retirement, you WILL save lots of money.   Actually, you will be able to spend YOUR money on things for YOU and things YOU like to do, the money won't be going to the government.

Quoted from mikechristine1

Obviously the "most" that you know are public sector retirees who are getting pensions of $60,000 and up.    Because even GE doesn't give a pension that generous and I believe they eliminated health and prescription coverage in retirement to supplement medicare.   Retail, the hotel industry, the private nursing homes, the small businesses, they don't provide anything in the way of retirement income to allow a couple to pay $7,000 a year in property taxes, probably $10,000 for medicare supplement, etc.

In Florida you pay for AC.   In NY you pay for AC (or are you sitting at home in 90 degree temps and 70 degree dewpoints with no AC nor dehumidifer?)   In Florida virtually no heating bills, In NY, you're probably paying heat for 4-5 months at least.

Oh, Box, I DON'T disagree with you on things like the scenery when you mention flat vs hills for example.   Hey, winter skiers like us know the importance of hills, of mountains.  And yes, the color up here is beautiful in the fall.  And being high up in some of the peaks in the Adirondacks is breathtaking.   One not even go far far up north, just go up to Cathead Mt, it's close by and then hike up it.   But where in NY do you get to see a sunrise or sunset over the ocean, unless you go to Long Island and that's expensive.  Where in NY can you go deep sea fishing year-round?   And at least if you go to FL and it doesn't cost you $7,000 and up for taxes you can actually afford a boat to go out on the ocean with.  And actually, for rivers, really no one wants to swim in the Hudson, and look at Collins lake which is closed, and look at Lake George which has some kind of problem now, and Saratoga lake had, or maybe still has the weeds on the top.   Sure, they can get a freeze in Florida, but it doesn't last long, a retiree down there with a low property tax bill can afford a swimming pool and probably use it 10 months of the year.  Even Arizona is a good place to retire too if you like the hotter weather.  

Everyone has different interests for retirement, but being in NY costs so much more, and since the vast majority of retirees do not have lavish pensions with health insurance on top of that and a 401K besides (because government employees can have those in addition to lavish pensions), the vast majority of retirees cannot afford the high taxes   Certainly not all want to move, but most can't move because they can't sell their house and Schenectady is probably the worst to try to leave

HUH!  Where to begin.

I'll keep it brief:
~ " Because even GE doesn't give a pension that generous and I believe they eliminated health
and prescription coverage in retirement to supplement medicare."
Your post is full of assumptions that are not accurate.  I am a Card Carrying retired  blue collar
Union Member but not a public employee retiree.
Many of the friends that I posted about ARE retired GE blue collar workers.  None are rich or
have other income except for what ever 401k or savings they accumulated over the years.  Only
one that I can think of is a public sector retiree.  
These GE retirees DO have prescription coverage and DO have supplemental medicare coverage.

I have a modest pension and very modest investments and I'm not suffering financially.  You seem to think
that Schenectady is something special... the same problems are found in almost every town in this area...
high taxes, an eroding tax base, crime,  decaying downtown and lack of good jobs.
My property and school taxes are too high, and will probably continue to increase... just like yours.  My home
has lost value over the last 6 years and has hovered at it's present value, but it would be impossible to sell at
even a discounted price... just like yours.

I have relatives who live in Florida... when they talk about their cities and schools they have the
exact same complaints that you do.  Taxes too high, crime, drugs, welfare, etc etc etc.

I live a very short distance from the Adirondack park. 6 million acres of forest, streams, skiing, kayaking,
hiking, clean water, open spaces, wildlife, (usually) temperate Summers, beautiful Autumns, fantastic
Winters, andclear crisp Spring.
(On our Disney World vacation, the hotel would close the swimming pool when the water temp got above
105 degrees!  There is nothing refreshing or cooling about swimming in water even close to that warm.
Swimming at Clearwater beach was a similar experience... like swimming in bathtub water.)

  Florida...    Hurricane season, the invasion of the tourists, fading into an outdoor steambath for months
then a few actual nice days!

I'll take Upstate NY any day.

Quoted from Box A Rox

HUH!  Where to begin.

I'll keep it brief:
~ " Because even GE doesn't give a pension that generous and I believe they eliminated health
and prescription coverage in retirement to supplement medicare."
Your post is full of assumptions that are not accurate.  I am a Card Carrying retired  blue collar
Union Member but not a public employee retiree.
Many of the friends that I posted about ARE retired GE blue collar workers.  None are rich or
have other income except for what ever 401k or savings they accumulated over the years.  Only
one that I can think of is a public sector retiree.  
These GE retirees DO have prescription coverage and DO have supplemental medicare coverage.

I have a modest pension and very modest investments and I'm not suffering financially.  You seem to think
that Schenectady is something special... the same problems are found in almost every town in this area...
high taxes, an eroding tax base, crime,  decaying downtown and lack of good jobs.
My property and school taxes are too high, and will probably continue to increase... just like yours.  My home
has lost value over the last 6 years and has hovered at it's present value, but it would be impossible to sell at
even a discounted price... just like yours.

I have relatives who live in Florida... when they talk about their cities and schools they have the
exact same complaints that you do.  Taxes too high, crime, drugs, welfare, etc etc etc.

I live a very short distance from the Adirondack park. 6 million acres of forest, streams, skiing, kayaking,
hiking, clean water, open spaces, wildlife, (usually) temperate Summers, beautiful Autumns, fantastic
Winters, andclear crisp Spring.
(On our Disney World vacation, the hotel would close the swimming pool when the water temp got above
105 degrees!  There is nothing refreshing or cooling about swimming in water even close to that warm.
Swimming at Clearwater beach was a similar experience... like swimming in bathtub water.)

  Florida...    Hurricane season, the invasion of the tourists, fading into an outdoor steambath for months
then a few actual nice days!

I'll take Upstate NY any day.

And don't forget that while Florida may be a nice place to live when you are healthy ---- the nursing homes and medical care are not as good as in New York.   I know of many retirees who MOVED BACK to New York when they got older and began experiencing the chronic and debilitating illnesses of old age.

Quoted from DemocraticVoiceOfReason

And don't forget that while Florida may be a nice place to live when you are healthy ---- the nursing homes and medical care are not as good as in New York.   I know of many retirees who MOVED BACK to New York when they got older and began experiencing the chronic and debilitating illnesses of old age.

Oh yeah, they just love coming

Quoted from DemocraticVoiceOfReason

And don't forget that while Florida may be a nice place to live when you are healthy ---- the nursing homes and medical care are not as good as in New York.   I know of many retirees who MOVED BACK to New York when they got older and began experiencing the chronic and debilitating illnesses of old age.

Oh yeah, they just love coming to NY and risking their lives shoveling snow, driving on icy roads, trying to shovel ice off the roofs, etc.

You always "know people who......"    How about providing us some evidence from real sources that states that people who leave NY to go south are finding that it's better to come back to NY and pay the higher taxes.   Don't provide us tabloid news stories that one might find in Metroland.   Produce some evidence, DV, EVIDENCE that supports what you claim.  


And provide the EVIDENCE that states medical care is better in NY.  

Well, we are waiting, we'll STILL be waiting for you to provide a shred of evidence.    Just like you have yet to provide one teeny weeny shred of evidence to prove what you claim about county taxes being lower than 50 years ago---are you EVER going to provide any evidence for that????   Been waiting for OVER A YEAR and STILL waiting.   But that's OK, because we all know that we will still be waiting 10 years from now, because you will NEVER NEVER provide one shred of evidence about the county taxes.   You can make the statement all you want, but until you can prove it, it's just another lie.

Quoted from mikechristine1

Oh yeah, they just love coming

My neighbor used to spend his winters in Florida.  He had  emphysema, heart problems, arthritis,
high blood pressure and high triglycerides, among other health problems.
His complaint about health care in Florida was that every condition required a specialist, but no one
was treating him for all conditions combined.
One spring he showed me a pillow case full of drugs that he had accumulated over the past two years in
Florida.  Each for a specific condition, but many of them were interacting.
His family doctor in NY went through the drugs throwing many in the waste basket, others he put on his
desk, and others he put in a small box.
The drugs in the wastebasket were doing no good for any of his conditions.  The ones in the box were
the drugs he should continue to take or take when necessary.
The drugs on his desk were the drugs that were interacting and doing him harm.

From then on, before he'd fill a prescription in Florida, he'd check with his NY doctor for advice.

Everyone can say "someone I know..."

Again, because we are winter skiers we don't mind the weather up here.   With hurricanes down there, it's easy to see why people would live in Fl in the winter time, come up here in the summer, just to be sure that avoid paying NY taxes.   Because the undisputable fact is that NY is far more expensive than Florida.

Everyone has there preference in climate.  And in retirement, the things people like to do will affect where they might live.   But guaranteed, if you live in NY, your money will not provide you as much as if you live outside of NY.  Stay IN NYS and you will have much less money to spend on the things you want to spend it on, unless you are retired from and getting a lavish pension from the government along with the cadillac health insurance.

Quoted from mikechristine1

Everyone can say "someone I know..."

Again, because we are winter skiers we don't mind the weather up here.   With hurricanes down there, it's easy to see why people would live in Fl in the winter time, come up here in the summer, just to be sure that avoid paying NY taxes.   Because the undisputable fact is that NY is far more expensive than Florida.

Everyone has there preference in climate.  And in retirement, the things people like to do will affect where they might live.   But guaranteed, if you live in NY, your money will not provide you as much as if you live outside of NY.  Stay IN NYS and you will have much less money to spend on the things you want to spend it on, unless you are retired from and getting a lavish pension from the government along with the cadillac health insurance.

Again you make generalizations as if they applied to everyone.  
The one state worker who retired that I know about makes less in Social Security than I do... has less
investments and a slightly larger pension than mine.  
His pension is not at all LAVISH, and his health insurance is typical or slightly better than anyone retiring
from a major corporation.
He affords to live here the same way every one else in his neighborhood does.  
My neighbor who was a retired heavy equipment operator, retired early due to his bad health.  He not only
owned a modest home in Florida, but kept a home here in NY State as well.  He wasn't rich, but he wasn't
in any financial difficulty either.  There are blue collar working class New Yorkers who own second homes
on area lakes.  They pay school taxes, county and town taxes on both properties and get no STAR
award for their second property.  

We all make choices as to where to spend our dollars.  Some prefer new cars, ( I buy used) some eat out
at fancy restaurants a few times a week, (I seldom do) some like jewelry, vacations and live an
extravagant life style, others live a more modest lifestyle.  
Friends moved to Texas for a better job, lower taxes and a new surroundings... the job paid well but no
benefits that he had with a similar job in NY.  In the end he lost money when you consider his loss of benefits.
They now live and work in Massachusetts ( Taxachusetts)  and are glad they moved back to the East coast.

Move if it's so bad here... like they did.  It taught them an expensive lesson.

Quoted from Box A Rox

My neighbor used to spend his winters in Florida.  He had  emphysema, heart problems, arthritis,
high blood pressure and high triglycerides, among other health problems.
His complaint about health care in Florida was that every condition required a specialist, but no one
was treating him for all conditions combined.
One spring he showed me a pillow case full of drugs that he had accumulated over the past two years in
Florida.  Each for a specific condition, but many of them were interacting.

I'm sorry but you really think this problem is related to what state you're in?

I don't see how that makes any sense really.  Are you saying they literally have no primary care physicians?

You do realize that physicians all over the country are protecting themselves from lawsuits by refering to other specialists?

Not trying to be disrespectful but I see literally no connection to what state one lives in with respect to physician quality.  If anything I would think that physicians would be leaving NYS because what we have now is unsustainable!  You can't have people leaving this state to the point we lose TWO representatives in Congress, but yet the state budget just keeps going up.

Unsustainable!

And DV - maybe those people are moving back for two reasons:

1)  They have family here to help take care of them
2)  NYS is more "progressive" in terms of Medicaid?  (Again completely unsustainably so...)

I literally use to be proud of paying as much in taxes as I do because well, I was giving more than my fair share to a country that I love.  Again the problem with it is that it is unsustainable and the system WILL collapse unless drastic measures are taken.

I have a lot of empathy for others in need, I really do, but that empathy does not trump absolute reality with respect to out of control spending on the local, state, and federal level.