So show me... IS killing an enemy combatant, regardless of nationality, a war crime...while in the active act of planning or carrying out acts of war against the USA, is an American allowed to plot, and carry out another WTC attack and be immune from US military action?
Apparently Cicero thinks so.
I wonder if they consider our conversations on the little itty-bitty forum some kind of act of war of words......? the military periscope vs the civilian periscope......
...you are a product of your environment, your environment is a product of your priorities, your priorities are a product of you......
The replacement of morality and conscience with law produces a deadly paradox.
STOP BEING GOOD DEMOCRATS---STOP BEING GOOD REPUBLICANS--START BEING GOOD AMERICANS
~"Box went from believing the suspension of habeas corpus and the indefinite detainment of FOREIGN enemy combatants at gitmo, and the torture of 'enemy combatants' was considered war crimes based on international law." Nothing has changed there... it's still a war crime, and GWB should be prosecuted.
What has changed? Cicero considers the killing of an American Al Qaeda terrorist in Yemen by G Worst Bush to be acceptable, even admirable... yet The killing of an American Al Qaeda terrorist in Yemen by Obama to be a "war crime".
I wonder if Cicero will ever explain that one to us.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. John Kenneth Galbraith
What has changed? Cicero considers the killing of an American Al Qaeda terrorist in Yemen by G Worst Bush to be acceptable, even admirable... yet The killing of an American Al Qaeda terrorist in Yemen by Obama to be a "war crime".
I wonder if Cicero will ever explain that one to us.
This is not in support GWB, but,,,what American citizen has GWB signed off on for assassination? And if there was a time Bush signed an order to kill an American citizen, and one was killed, I don't think I 'admired' it.
You on the other hand, you have decried Bush as a war criminal for indefinite DETAINMENT, remember Abu Garib, that was SCANDALOUS and TORTURE, water boarding was a high crime punishable by death. Now, the president authorizing the CIA to fire a few missiles from an unmanned drone on a U.S. citizen is APPLAUDED.
Box, you know what's funny, even when you've won the argument and persuaded me into taking a less hawkish stance and rethinking my understanding of the rule of law and the Constitution, it is now YOU who is defending the same policies that just 3 years ago you considered war crimes, unlawful and unconstitutional.
Box, tune in at 12 noon tomorrow on AM 810 for some neocon Rush Limbaugh 'kill'em all' warmongering. It seems to be your new philosophy.
This is not in support GWB, but,,,what American citizen has GWB signed off on for assassination? And if there was a time Bush signed an order to kill an American citizen, and one was killed, I don't think I 'admired' it. You on the other hand, you have decried Bush as a war criminal for indefinite DETAINMENT, remember Abu Garib, that was SCANDALOUS and TORTURE, water boarding was a high crime punishable by death. Now, the president authorizing the CIA to fire a few missiles from an unmanned drone on a U.S. citizen is APPLAUDED. Box, you know what's funny, even when you've won the argument and persuaded me into taking a less hawkish stance and rethinking my understanding of the rule of law and the Constitution, it is now YOU who is defending the same policies that just 3 years ago you considered war crimes, unlawful and unconstitutional. Box, tune in at 12 noon tomorrow on AM 810 for some neocon Rush Limbaugh 'kill'em all' warmongering. It seems to be your new philosophy.
One more time slowly... so even the kindergartners on the board can get it.
Torture IS a war crime. I think we all agree??? Water boarding is torture, any one who's been water boarded agrees. (When I went through Camp Pendleton POW school, they used water boarding on officers, as a demonstration of the kind of TORTURE they would be exposed to if captured.) GWB is GUILTY of Torture, and as such a war criminal. IF Obama promotes or condones water boarding, then he would be a War Criminal. Torture is Torture.
Your question: "This is not in support GWB, but,,,what American citizen has GWB signed off on for assassination?
There was an assignation of two Al Qaida operatives in Yemen in late 2001, authorized by George Worst Bush. One was Abu Ali al-Harithi, organizer of the 2000 attack on the USS Cole. The other killed in the same attack was a U.S. citizen, Kamal Derwish, who was known by the CIA to be in the car with Al Harithi.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. John Kenneth Galbraith
Hey man, whatever box, if you condone assassination of U.S. citizens, that's on you. I understand torture and indefinite detainment of foreigners is harsh and punishable by death, BUT assassination of a U.S. citizen is A-OK in your book. Hey, there are many of Fox News that agree with you box, so you're not alone.
I think the detainment and execution of jews in Nazi Germany was legal once passed by a legislating body once a certain somebody came to power. I guess if this legislating body deems assassination of it's own citizens without due process is ok, box need not question his authorities - it's ok. If my guy says he's guilty, then he's guilty. After all, it was reported on the news Al-Alwaki is the enemy, so it must be true. In the new America we have trial by media.
Box, Hannity is on right after Rush at 3pm on 810. You'll LOVE his show.
Hey man, whatever box, if you condone assassination of U.S. citizens, that's on you. I understand torture and indefinite detainment of foreigners is harsh and punishable by death, BUT assassination of a U.S. citizen is A-OK in your book. Hey, there are many of Fox News that agree with you box, so you're not alone.
I think the detainment and execution of jews in Nazi Germany was legal once passed by a legislating body once a certain somebody came to power. I guess if this legislating body deems assassination of it's own citizens without due process is ok, box need not question his authorities - it's ok. If my guy says he's guilty, then he's guilty. After all, it was reported on the news Al-Alwaki is the enemy, so it must be true. In the new America we have trial by media.
Box, Hannity is on right after Rush at 3pm on 810. You'll LOVE his show.
Someone, anyone... probably one of those kindergarteners in the back row... please explain to Cicero the difference between executing prisoners of war, and an attack on a single target enemy in a war. He seems to have a problem that there is a difference... I'm sure with patience, you can explain it to him in terms he might be able to understand.
BTW, If this American Terrorist was captured in Yemen, instead of being killed, I would be against executing him or torturing him. The issue isn't punishment, it's eliminating an enemy threat.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. John Kenneth Galbraith
BTW, If this American Terrorist was captured in Yemen, instead of being killed, I would be against executing him or torturing him. The issue isn't punishment, it's eliminating an enemy threat.
From what is coming out we knew where he was for some time, there was no attempt to capture him. If we attempted to at least capture him and he resisted then I would have no problem with our troops taking him out but that did not happen, it was an execution. We also know now that we were working with the Yemen government on this, why didn't they attempt to capture him when we knew his location.
"In the beginning of a change, the Patriot is a scarce man, brave, hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a Patriot."
From what is coming out we knew where he was for some time, there was no attempt to capture him. If we attempted to at least capture him and he resisted then I would have no problem with our troops taking him out but that did not happen, it was an execution. We also know now that we were working with the Yemen government on this, why didn't they attempt to capture him when we knew his location.
I read an early on report on this story that a SEAL Team, Bin Laden type attack would only endanger the military as well as Yemeni operatives in country, and the likelihood of success was very low.
Cicero seems to be unaware of the finality of war. If this American Terrorist was working in a low level job as a forward observer, spotting US troops or equipment... he would be a valid target. We would kill him. Not send him a letter to ask him if he wants to surrender, but KILL HIM. It's called war.
If this American citizen terrorist were in an enemy spy plane gathering data for an attack on America or America's allies, we would shoot down the plane. Not ask him if he wants to land, or say "please don't attack the USA"... we would KILL HIM. It's called war.
If this American Terrorist were in a bunker deep inside a protected area of Afghanistan, with a joystick in his hand, gathering data bout US troop movements. We would Kill HIM. It's called war.
If you don't have the stomach to kill your enemy, then please stay away from the US Military because that is their primary mission.
I hold no personal animosity towards this man. If he were a prisoner I would hope we treated him with the same respect we should treat all prisoners. If capture were possible with out endangering more US troops, that would be the preferred course, but if not, then he should be killed along with the rest of the enemy.
It isn't pretty or efficient. War sucks.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. John Kenneth Galbraith
Murder suspect gunned down in California woods By the CNN Wire Staff updated 1:32 AM EST, Sun October 2, 2011 STORY HIGHLIGHTS
Aaron Bassler was wanted in two murders in August in Mendocino County More than 40 law enforcement agents have been involved in the hunt for him He is shot dead by a team of sheriff officers patrolling remote forest area The suspect was not warned and didn't fire, but was considered "dangerous"
(CNN) -- Three law enforcement officers patrolling a remote stretch of northern California woods shot dead a double-murder suspect whom authorities had been hunting for 36 days, a sheriff said. Aaron Bassler was wearing black clothing and carrying a large backpack, a fanny-pack and assault rifle when three Sacramento sheriffs spotted him early Saturday, Mendocino County Sheriff Tom Allman said. From about 40 yards away and at an elevation 25 feet higher, they fired about seven rounds into his upper torso. Allman said Bassler didn't fire a shot, and there was no verbal exchange between the parties. The suspect raised his weapon -- which was loaded and not on safety -- from the ground toward law enforcement officers. It is believed to be the same weapon used to kill one of his victims, officials said. The suspect was considered "armed and dangerous," and was believed to have engaged in a gunfight with three other law enforcement officers from Alameda County two days earlier. There was no "shoot-to-kill" order in effect, Allman said
"In the beginning of a change, the Patriot is a scarce man, brave, hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a Patriot."
Even McVeigh got his constitutional due process before he was killed.
When the INSANE are running the ASYLUM In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule. -- Friedrich Nietzsche
“How fortunate for those in power that people never think.” Adolph Hitler
When the INSANE are running the ASYLUM In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule. -- Friedrich Nietzsche
“How fortunate for those in power that people never think.” Adolph Hitler
You know what is funny? Osama Bin Laden has been indicted by a U.S. grand jury. Al-Awlaki had not so much as a search warrant, he has been indicted for NO CRIME. NOT EVEN TREASON.
BIN LADEN WAS GIVEN DUE PROCESS, AND HE'S NOT EVEN A U.S. CITIZEN.
Nobody is arguing that Al-Awlaki or Bin Laden were guilty of something. What is puzzling is peoples willingness to scrap our justice system for a U.S. Citizen.
But, neocons like Box think it is necessary to circumvent the rule of law and give the power of judge, jury and executioner to the executive branch. And that's not even the case, since being the judge, jury, and executioner would mean the person was CHARGED with a crime.
Box, how does it feel to look into the mirror and begin to realize you are not much different than those statists on the right? The power of the state is GOOD as long as your guy controls the power. Rule of law, shmule of law. Might as well PISS on the Constitution.
Quoted Text
US GRAND JURY INDICTMENT AGAINST USAMA BIN LADEN
New York -- A U.S. Federal Grand Jury in New York on Nov. 5 issued an indictment against Usama Bin Laden alleging that he and others engaged in a long-term conspiracy to attack U.S. facilities overseas and to kill American citizens.
The indictment noted that Al Qaeda, Bin Laden's international terrorist group, forged alliances with the National Islamic Front in Sudan and with the government of Iran and with its associated group Hezballah to "work together against their perceived common enemies in the West, particularly the United States."
Additionally, the indictment states that Al Qaeda reached an agreement with Iraq not to work against the regime of Saddam Hussein and that they would work cooperatively with Iraq, particularly in weapons development.
According to the indictment, Bin Laden's group also tried to recruit Americans to travel through the United States and the West to deliver messages and to conduct financial transactions to aid their terrorist activities. The indictment also states that Al Qaeda used humanitarian work as a conduit for transmitting funds to affiliate terrorist groups.
The indictment also claims that Bin Laden's supporters purchased land for terrorist training camps; bought warehouses where explosives were stored; transferred bank accounts using various aliases; purchased sophisticated telecommunications equipment; and transferred money and weapons to Al Qaeda and affiliated terrorist organizations.
The indictment also states that beginning in 1993, Al Qaeda began training Somali tribes to oppose the United Nation's humanitarian effort in Somalia. In October, members of Al Qaeda participated in an attack on U.S. military personnel where 18 soldiers were killed and 73 others wounded in Mogadishu. In another reference, the indictment noted that an unnamed "co-conspirator" transported weapons and explosives from Khartoum to Port Sudan for transshipment to the Saudi Arabian peninsula.
The Grand Jury document, which usually does not provide a great amount of details in advance of a prosecution, also stated that Bin Laden and "others" tried to develop chemical weapons and attempted to obtain nuclear weapons components in 1993.
The indictment noted that Bin Laden issued his Declaration of Jihad with the aim of recruiting others to "kill Americans and encouraged other persons to join the jihad against the American enemy."
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