Cicero, I don't care about abortion statistics... I only posted them because you feared that they were growing every year... even your statistics show that they are not.
You some how link the number of abortions to wanted children... and post about the baby boomer years...
Box, your earlier argument was that by education and contraception through organizations like PP they would reduce the number of "unwanted" pregnancies - NOT just the accessibility to abortions. The statistics I present show that abortion in the 40's and 50's was virtually non-existent in comparison to live birth.
So my question to you is what percentage of the live births was considered "unwanted" due to the unavailability of abortions during that time period? OR... How many MORE "wanted" pregnancies were there because of Planned Parenthoods work educating and making preventative birth control more available?
Those that are fortunate enough to take their first breath out of the womb are human beings. In America, they are then American citizens and afforded every right of any other citizen.
Not true, one minute before exiting the womb, if a person(not doctor) chose to kill the unborn baby it is murder.
Those that are fortunate enough to take their first breath out of the womb are human beings. In America, they are then American citizens and afforded every right of any other citizen.
Someone needs to speak out for the innocent voiceless victims that will never take a breath out of the womb because of someone who did have the luxury of being able to take that first breath and was not ripped from the womb. ............someone needs to speak for those innocent victims who can not.
When the INSANE are running the ASYLUM In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule. -- Friedrich Nietzsche
“How fortunate for those in power that people never think.” Adolph Hitler
The statistics I present show that abortion in the 40's and 50's was virtually non-existent in comparison to live birth.
Once again. Abortion was ILLEGAL in the 40's & 50's. If you admitted that you had an abortion or that you preformed an abortion, you were a criminal. I doubt your statistics (or any) are of value. Poor and middle class used the services of "back alley abortionists"...Often called "coat hanger abortionists". Women died from the procedure. (Not a lot of record keeping for your statistics in those years) Some were medically trained and preformed the procedure much the same way it would be done in a hospital setting. Others were failed medical students, with just a basic knowledge of anatomy and a few diagrams.
You post as if abortion is something new... Consider this: ~Much of what is known about the methods and practice of abortion in Greek and Roman history comes from early classical texts. Abortion, as a gynecological procedure, was primarily the province of women who were either midwives or well-informed laypeople. In his Theaetetus, Plato mentions a midwife's ability to induce abortion in the early stages of pregnancy.
~Soranus, a 2nd century Greek physician, recommended abortion in cases involving health complications as well as emotional immaturity, and provided detailed suggestions in his work Gynecology. Diuretics, emmenagogues, enemas, fasting, and bloodletting were prescribed as safe abortion methods, although Soranus advised against the use of sharp instruments to induce miscarriage, due to the risk of organ perforation.
~Japanese documents show records of induced abortion from as early as the 12th century. It became much more prevalent during the Edo period, especially among the peasant class, who were hit hardest by the recurrent famines and high taxation of the age.
Cicero... IMO the Conservative abhorrence to abortion is for public consumption... Abortion crosses all political, economic, social and cultural lines. Abortion is a fact of life and IMO the only way to reduce abortion is to promote birth control.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. John Kenneth Galbraith
Someone needs to speak out for the innocent voiceless victims that will never take a breath out of the womb because of someone who did have the luxury of being able to take that first breath and was not ripped from the womb. ............someone needs to speak for those innocent victims who can not.
I guess you are.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. John Kenneth Galbraith
PP is an important resource for kids looking for reliable information. Knowledge is power... in this case, the power to make good decisions about their future. Good decisions promote less unwanted pregnancies and less abortion.
Ever notice the women of the forum are silent-- most probably because they know someone that has had to terminate a pregnancy for one reason or another- and it probably was not the first or even the second choice- but they did have a choice-
Cicero knows someone too but they wouldn't or ever will tell him
If this video is valid, I'm glad they fired the jerk.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. John Kenneth Galbraith
One in five American women has received care from a Planned Parenthood health center during her lifetime, and last year three million patients came to one of our more than 800 health centers.
Women are voting for Planned Parenthood... they are voting with their preferred use of PP's facilities.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. John Kenneth Galbraith
Once again. Abortion was ILLEGAL in the 40's & 50's. If you admitted that you had an abortion or that you preformed an abortion, you were a criminal. I doubt your statistics (or any) are of value.
I guess you can throw away any statistic that puts a number on drug use in America. Since drugs are ILLEGAL, how can we trust the scientific estimates.
ou post as if abortion is something new... Consider this: ~Much of what is known about the methods and practice of abortion in Greek and Roman history comes from early classical texts. Abortion, as a gynecological procedure, was primarily the province of women who were either midwives or well-informed laypeople. In his Theaetetus, Plato mentions a midwife's ability to induce abortion in the early stages of pregnancy.
That's pretty funny, a progressive quoting people from 300 BC to argue a progressive point in support of abortion. We've come far haven't we?
Hey, what are we arguing next, are you in support of capital punishment by referencing the historical use of the guillotine?
Ever notice the women of the forum are silent-- most probably because they know someone that has had to terminate a pregnancy for one reason or another- and it probably was not the first or even the second choice- but they did have a choice-
Based on what box a rox believes, women should carry no guilt by choosing to have an abortion. An abortion is the removal of a random group of cells, no different than removing an unsightly mole.
I’m more pissed about the propaganda that is meant to remove the guilt and negative feelings of an abortion by dehumanizing the fetus. My beef isn’t with the women who “choose”, it’s more with the government propaganda that dehumanizes a fetus in order to push a sick agenda of women more easily coming to the decison to abort.
I guess you can throw away any statistic that puts a number on drug use in America. Since drugs are ILLEGAL, how can we trust the scientific estimates.
That's pretty funny, a progressive quoting people from 300 BC to argue a progressive point in support of abortion. We've come far haven't we?
Hey, what are we arguing next, are you in support of capital punishment by referencing the historical use of the guillotine?
Cicero always seems to get it wrong. I don't back the statistics on abortion because it is such a heated issue, with so much disinformation being pushed by various agendas.
Next:
"A progressive quoting people from 300 BC to argue a progressive point in support of abortion. We've come far haven't we? ??? is right! You pulled out data from YOUR STATISTICS about the 40's & 50's... I went farther back to show that abortion has always been with us. Much of the time it was considered to be a medical procedure, not a criminal one.
A progressive, a conservative, a liberal, an anarchistic, a libertarian... Using history to demonstrate an issue is nothing new... it's part of the discussion. It's no more unusual than you citing the 40's in your discussion.
To the point: If you want to reduce the numbers of abortions in this country, what would you do. ~Outlaw them? (That didn't work in the past, it only made them more dangerous for women)
~Promote birth control? (That is my choice)
~Education? (That might help. The Abstinence Campaign was a failure, so why not try education)
~Increased funding and facilitating adoption? (sounds good to me)
If the Conservative aim is to reduce abortions in this country, it would seem that birth control would be the most effective, least costly, and IMO most likely to succeed. If the Conservative aim is to legislate morality... to make women not have sex, for fear of an unwanted pregnancy... That agenda has failed for the last hundred years, so why would it work now?
There is a group called BirthRight, that supports women once pregnant and helps them through the pregnancy with medical aid and adoption information. Why don't Conservatives put their dollars where their agenda is, and fund these programs so they are popular as PP? My opinion? They aren't really interested in the fetus... they are interested in their puritanical control of women concerning sex.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. John Kenneth Galbraith
I would oppose Birthright getting federal tax money as much as I do Planned Parenthood. It's not even the idea of WHAT is supported inside the building, it's that the issue doesn't belong AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL. There should be no funding for either of these, just as there should be no funding for the EPA, or the Departments of Education or Energy. It's UNCONSTITUTIONAL.
Cicero always seems to get it wrong. I don't back the statistics on abortion because it is such a heated issue, with so much disinformation being pushed by various agendas.
Next:
"A progressive quoting people from 300 BC to argue a progressive point in support of abortion. We've come far haven't we? ??? is right! You pulled out data from YOUR STATISTICS about the 40's & 50's... I went farther back to show that abortion has always been with us. Much of the time it was considered to be a medical procedure, not a criminal one.
My statistics from the 40's and 50's are relevant because it measures statistics during the existence of Planned Parenthood. Your reference to barbaric times to argue what you consider a progressive issue is counter to what progressive means. Unless you believe progress from 300 BC to the modern day is government funding of abortion.
There are MANY socially acceptable behavior from 300 BC that are considered uncivilized and illegal in 2011 America - polygamy, infanticide, and slavery just to name a few. Some things may always be with us, but not all those things need be promoted by government and accepted by a society. Do you disagree?
My statistics from the 40's and 50's are relevant because it measures statistics during the existence of Planned Parenthood. Your reference to barbaric times to argue what you consider a progressive issue is counter to what progressive means. Unless you believe progress from 300 BC to the modern day is government funding of abortion.
There are MANY socially acceptable behavior from 300 BC that are considered uncivilized and illegal in 2011 America - polygamy, infanticide, and slavery just to name a few. Some things may always be with us, but not all those things need be promoted by government and accepted by a society. Do you disagree?
My posts are about abortion in general, not just PP. I offered a historic view of abortion that it isn't just a modern day procedure. Again, the government doesn't fund abortion. Abortion services at PP are privately funded... but many other necessary services are partially govt funded. Cancer screening, birth control, AIDS & STD information and treatment... all necessary services. Necessary to women, not to Conservatives who cut those funds.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. John Kenneth Galbraith
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