It is difficult to suggest these raises to be as merit raises. This raise is "for the position". If it were based on merit, than future board members salaries would be fluctuating according to performance continuously. And how do we decide "merit"? Vote them in or out!
The argument will be made that somehow they deserve the raise because it’s been so long since they received one. Sorry, but from where I come from, raises are merit-based. Public service was never intended to be rewarded monetarily. These are difficult times for residents as they struggle to absorb ever mounting financial burdens beyond their control. We should all be tightening our belt together. $20,000 may not seem like a lot of money as a percentage of the budget but it’s still real money – better applied to almost any other need.
Posted by Michael at 2:18 PM 0 comments Friday, December 7, 2007
Great idea Michael.....I think you should suggest that at the meeting. Rotterdam has a volunteer fire department. Next thing Rotterdam needs is a volunteer Town Board. Maybe we can talk the police union into having their guys/gals volunteer, after all they are public servants. That would save a lot of money in the budget. No wonder why stores like Pier One Imports goes out of business, while Dollar Stores, and discount marts open up for business in Rotterdam. That's just Rotterdam mentality. Do it on the cheap. Rotterdam has had the tighten the belts mind set for 30 or 40 years.
Michael, maybe you get a certain intrinsic feeling serving the public. Most people work better with some form of compensation.
I agree with you on the boards disregard for the procedure to give themselves raises. But as for you assertion that the board members don't deserve raises because they haven't earned the merit, I disagree.
Rotterdam's services such as police, fire, water, utilities, roads, snow removal, ect...... are still adequate. Have certain town boards in the past made some unethical decisions which put Rotterdam in the predicament it is in today.......YES! But not this Town Board.
If you do decide to run for Town Board, you should campaign on the fact that in elected, you are willing to return your salary back into the budget. It would probably swing a lot of votes your way.
Okay, so if we follow along Cicero's theory... Would this proposed raise be merited IF the Masullo Est. issue was resolved by this town board? If it were based on merit, then why should the future members benefit monetarily from the work this present town board accomplished?
When the INSANE are running the ASYLUM In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule. -- Friedrich Nietzsche
“How fortunate for those in power that people never think.” Adolph Hitler
Great idea Michael.....I think you should suggest that at the meeting. Rotterdam has a volunteer fire department. Next thing Rotterdam needs is a volunteer Town Board. Maybe we can talk the police union into having their guys/gals volunteer, after all they are public servants. That would save a lot of money in the budget. No wonder why stores like Pier One Imports goes out of business, while Dollar Stores, and discount marts open up for business in Rotterdam. That's just Rotterdam mentality. Do it on the cheap. Rotterdam has had the tighten the belts mind set for 30 or 40 years.
Michael, maybe you get a certain intrinsic feeling serving the public. Most people work better with some form of compensation.
I agree with you on the boards disregard for the procedure to give themselves raises. But as for you assertion that the board members don't deserve raises because they haven't earned the merit, I disagree.
Rotterdam's services such as police, fire, water, utilities, roads, snow removal, ect...... are still adequate. Have certain town boards in the past made some unethical decisions which put Rotterdam in the predicament it is in today.......YES! But not this Town Board.
If you do decide to run for Town Board, you should campaign on the fact that in elected, you are willing to return your salary back into the budget. It would probably swing a lot of votes your way.
Cicero, I appreciate your opposing view but I’m not sure how I’m supposed to interpret your post.
You want to provide proper incentive for someone to serve? …but then want me to relinquish my salary if I were elected? (Interestingly, I’ve toyed with exactly that notion already, though it has nothing to do with garnering votes, and I’ll address it separately another time.)
Are you comparing what the police do to what the Town Board does? That’s a poor analogy, I think, and I never suggested anything beyond Town Board salaries staying the same. If I somehow implied that from speaking about public service in general, I apologize – it wasn’t intended.
Do you believe $5000 extra really ensures you better service? If so, why not even bigger raises for some really super-duper service?
I’m not blaming this Town Board for past inadequacies. They appear to be learning fast, however, with the end-around they’re trying to pull. That’s nice…hey, let’s provide more incentive for that behavior with a raise. Is $15,000 salary excessive? No. I just believe $10,000 is fine, especially with financial circumstances as they are. (Spending money isn’t necessarily a problem if it’s a good investment…I don’t think this is.) And if they really thought the position salary needed to be increased why not advocate for it and discuss it properly beforehand?
Besides “it’s been a long time”, can you justify why they deserve the increase? I’m all ears. Talk to me. Try to refrain from giving me Mr. Mertz’ spiel about the job being so demanding all of a sudden…it’s always been demanding and it will never, ever compensate anyone accordingly for their time and effort…but guess what…they sought the position and if the compensation is inadequate, no one is forcing them to keep running for re-election. But for some reason, they do…hmmmmm.
I seem to remember you as something of a fiscal conservative if I’m remembering some of your other posts correctly. I must admit I’m somewhat surprised by your flip acceptance of this increase.
Okay, so if we follow along Cicero's theory... Would this proposed raise be merited IF the Masullo Est. issue was resolved by this town board? If it were based on merit, then why should the future members benefit monetarily from the work this present town board accomplished?
What? Masullo Estates has nothing to do with it. Why is it that every time I say something it winds up back at Masullo Estates? There are multiple issues in this Town...I've been involved in a few of them...they are not always related beyond the obvious planning underpinnings. Follow? If not, the short answer to your question is: NO.
Forget merit for a moment (I've obviously confused people by what I meant.) Look at how they've manufactured where the raise will come from. That should be alarming. It's similar to the mechanisms of budgeting anticipated mortgage tax receipts that didn't materialize. The Town Board does an okay job. Should they get more money because the job is demanding? I don't think so. Is that simpler to understand?
I believe that the raise has nothing to do with merit....but, if the townfolk were so inclined as to actually see past their own backyards and to the future and not just the present day bag we are now holding the raise really has nothing to with merit or worth.....it's the planning and the foundation building that has EVERYTHING to do with the future of this town....
should the board not follow proper and transparent paths to make the board position/job more important in the townfolks minds they have lost the war....the battle is in keeping folks(all folks, not just the developers/business owners) involved and talking....
if it is $$ that keeps us sheeple moving and involved then that is the carrot that will be used......
and certainly looking around at the other municipalities and their pay is a poor justification---it's like comparing apples to oranges.......
...you are a product of your environment, your environment is a product of your priorities, your priorities are a product of you......
The replacement of morality and conscience with law produces a deadly paradox.
STOP BEING GOOD DEMOCRATS---STOP BEING GOOD REPUBLICANS--START BEING GOOD AMERICANS
The argument will be made that somehow they deserve the raise because it’s been so long since they received one. Sorry, but from where I come from, raises are merit-based.
This is why I posted along the lines of a 'merit based raise'.
Quoted Text
Look at how they've manufactured where the raise will come from. That should be alarming. It's similar to the mechanisms of budgeting anticipated mortgage tax receipts that didn't materialize.
Yes I found this somewhat alarming as well. I also thought of the lack of the anticipated mortgage tax and how it has effected schenectady county.
When the INSANE are running the ASYLUM In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule. -- Friedrich Nietzsche
“How fortunate for those in power that people never think.” Adolph Hitler
Cicero, I appreciate your opposing view but I’m not sure how I’m supposed to interpret your post.
You want to provide proper incentive for someone to serve? …but then want me to relinquish my salary if I were elected? (Interestingly, I’ve toyed with exactly that notion already, though it has nothing to do with garnering votes, and I’ll address it separately another time.)
Are you comparing what the police do to what the Town Board does? That’s a poor analogy, I think, and I never suggested anything beyond Town Board salaries staying the same. If I somehow implied that from speaking about public service in general, I apologize – it wasn’t intended.
Do you believe $5000 extra really ensures you better service? If so, why not even bigger raises for some really super-duper service?
I’m not blaming this Town Board for past inadequacies. They appear to be learning fast, however, with the end-around they’re trying to pull. That’s nice…hey, let’s provide more incentive for that behavior with a raise. Is $15,000 salary excessive? No. I just believe $10,000 is fine, especially with financial circumstances as they are. (Spending money isn’t necessarily a problem if it’s a good investment…I don’t think this is.) And if they really thought the position salary needed to be increased why not advocate for it and discuss it properly beforehand?
Besides “it’s been a long time”, can you justify why they deserve the increase? I’m all ears. Talk to me. Try to refrain from giving me Mr. Mertz’ spiel about the job being so demanding all of a sudden…it’s always been demanding and it will never, ever compensate anyone accordingly for their time and effort…but guess what…they sought the position and if the compensation is inadequate, no one is forcing them to keep running for re-election. But for some reason, they do…hmmmmm.
I seem to remember you as something of a fiscal conservative if I’m remembering some of your other posts correctly. I must admit I’m somewhat surprised by your flip acceptance of this increase.
My statement about you passing on your salary if elected was a bit of sarcasm. I wouldn't expected any fair minded person to pass on their compensation for an otherwise unrewarding job such as town board member. As for being fiscally conservative, that doesn't mean doing things as cheap as possible. Seventeen years at the same pay rate is a little excessive, even for a fiscal conservative as myself. I do understand our town board members are considered part time positions. Let's assume that they work 20 hrs. a week, working on things that pertain to the town. With 52 weeks in a year, our board members earn $9.61 per hour. You're right when you say if they don't like the pay that they are getting, they don't have to run for re-election. I think that's my concern as a resident. Good smart people who are on the town board, or are considering a position on the town board would weigh the stress, time commitment, and their good name being dragged through the mud on message boards like this one, against the compensation in return. It might not be worth it.
The comparison between town board salaries and police salaries was a tongue and cheek attempt(a poor one at that) to stress the point of "you get what you pay for". You wouldn't attract the most competent police officers to Rotterdam, if Rotterdams starting salary were $10,000 less than surrounding towns. The City of Schenectady's police department is a good example of what happens when you're over worked and underpaid. You end up with a corrupt nonfunctional police department. On the other hand, I don't believe over compensation of public servants such as officer Collins $90,000, with full medical benefits retirement package he received. That's an example of our elected officials allowing the exploitation of a loophole in the contract which cost the taxpayer a bundle. But as we learned, the RPD held some political clout in this town, so they were compensated handsomely.
Again Michael, I agree that it was done wrong procedurally, but to my understanding their were members of both parties for it and against it, as well as the town attorney(Republican Chairman) pointing out the fact that it shouldn't have been done this way. It seem fairly transparent, and not just a backdoor power move to get themselves an extra $5000.
Fair enough, Cicero. All well-reasoned and I don't necessarily disagree. I think I'm twisted up on the last-minute timing of the raise which I was prepared to accept grudgingly until it was determined they did it improperly (and I'll also allow it wasn't sinister but an act of ignorance.)
I've heard the argument before about the salary being high enough to attract the most talented. While true in the private sector, I don't think it applies as much in the public sector (as far as elected positions go). I'll use my own situation as an example...I'm reluctant to run because of the nastiness but IF I run the salary isn't the determining factor. Maybe that's unique but I don't think so 'cause these guys keep running for office.
I am a proponent of the "you get what you pay for" philosophy too but I think $10,000 is a fine enough Town Board salary. Also, if what you say is true, then we should both be concerned that we have made for a disincentive to run for Supervisor. The only way to fix that would be to raise that salary too and then we're on a scary slippery slope we may not be able to get off.
Anyway, I appreciate your thoughts and comments. Have a Merry Christmas!
I am a proponent of the "you get what you pay for" philosophy too but I think $10,000 is a fine enough Town Board salary. Also, if what you say is true, then we should both be concerned that we have made for a disincentive to run for Supervisor. The only way to fix that would be to raise that salary too and then we're on a scary slippery slope we may not be able to get off.
I guess the question is was $10,000 too much 17 years ago or a little low by today's standards? Because if you think $10,000 is adequate in 2007, then you must have thought $10,000 was astronomical in 1990.
I guess the question is was $10,000 too much 17 years ago or a little low by today's standards? Because if you think $10,000 is adequate in 2007, then you must have thought $10,000 was astronomical in 1990.
Yes, I think they have been overpaid in years past.
In private conversations with one Town official and one County official it was mentioned by each how much of their salary they had to put aside for re-election. It struck me odd then, as I am a proponent of term limits. With a pay increase on the table, it puts their comments in better light for me. How do you feel about subsidizing their re-election effort?
Let's also remember these are part-time positions, your previous analysis aside.
We as taxpayers pay PLENTY of salaries to ALL public sector jobs. I honestly don't care if they use their money for their political campaign or not. At least they are actually 'running' for office and not being appointed to positions like Kosiur who can't get elected no matter how much money he has!
When the INSANE are running the ASYLUM In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule. -- Friedrich Nietzsche
“How fortunate for those in power that people never think.” Adolph Hitler
Yes, I think they have been overpaid in years past.
In private conversations with one Town official and one County official it was mentioned by each how much of their salary they had to put aside for re-election. It struck me odd then, as I am a proponent of term limits. With a pay increase on the table, it puts their comments in better light for me. How do you feel about subsidizing their re-election effort?
Let's also remember these are part-time positions, your previous analysis aside.
Giving a pay raise across the board gives neither party an advantage. Especially in Schenectady County which is predominantly democrat. I don't think the extra $15,000 in raises the Rotterdam republican board members will earn, will jeopardize our democracy, and suddenly create a tidal wave of republican victory's across the county. Are you suggesting that the town republicans want this raise to help fund them in the next election cycle so they can secure their seats, or gain new ones? County democrats have a much bigger war chest than the republicans. Now, with this extra money, republicans will only get out spent by democrats 10 to 1 in these local races. I hope that's not the strategy Mr. Buchanan has cooked up to win elections. It will be 100 years before republicans gain a majority.
Mr. Tommasone(R) voted against the raise, Ms. Marco(D) voted for it, Mr. Godlewski(D) for it, and Mr. Parisi(R)(Republican Chair) brought to light the need for passage of a local law. If the votes went down party lines, I would agree that the majority party wanted the extra money for elections. It just doesn't look that way from where I'm sitting.
I'd rather have the transparent subsidized funding from their salaries for re-elections, than the shady kickbacks Contsantino received from Larnard for political favors recieved. That type of re-election funding kept him in office from '84' to '97'. Obviously he wasn't running for Town Supervisor for his town salary. He had other ways to get compensated.
I don't think that the public hearing should be on New Years Day for this proposed raise.
When the INSANE are running the ASYLUM In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule. -- Friedrich Nietzsche
“How fortunate for those in power that people never think.” Adolph Hitler
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