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CICERO
October 25, 2015, 11:06am Report to Moderator

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The AUTHORITARIAN is not "mature" and fears freedom.  The AUTHORITARIAN  is convinced that “his” leader, party, state, or idea is all-powerful and supreme, that he himself is strong and great, that he is a part of something “greater.” The paradox of this passive form of the authoritarian character is: the individual belittles himself so that he can — as part of something greater — become great himself. The individual wants to receive commands, so that he does not have the necessity to make decisions and carry responsibility.

Quoted Text


Erich Fromm 1957
The Authoritarian Personality


What do we meaN by “authoritarian personality”? We usually see a clear difference between the individual who wants to rule, control, or restrain others and the individual who tends to submit, obey, or to be humiliated. To use a somewhat friendlier term, we might talk of the leader and his followers. As natural as the difference between the ruling and the ruled might — in many ways — be, we also have to admit that these two types, or as we can also say, these two forms of authoritarian personality are actually tightly bound together.

What they have in common, what defines the essence of the authoritarian personality is an inability: the inability to rely on one’s self, to be independent, to put it in other words: to endure freedom.

The opposite of the authoritarian character is the mature person: a person who does not need to cling to others because he actively embraces and grasps the world, the people, and the things around him. What does that mean? Children still need to cling. In their mother’s womb they are — in a physical sense — one with their mother. After birth, for several months and in many ways even for years, they remain — in a psychological sense — still a part of their mother. Children could not exist without the mother’s help. However, they grow and develop. They learn to walk, to talk, and find their way around the world which becomes their world. Children possess two skills, inherent to the individual, which they can develop: love and reason.

Love is the bond and the feeling of being one with the world while keeping one’s own independence and integrity. The loving individual is connected with the world. He is not frightened since the world is his home. He can lose himself because he is certain of himself.

Love means recognizing the world as an emotional experience. However, there is also another way of recognizing, understanding with the mind. We call this kind of understanding reason. It is different from Intelligence. Intelligence is using the mind to reach certain practical goals. A chimpanzee demonstrates intelligence when he sees a banana in front of his cage but cannot reach it with either one of the two sticks in his cage, then he joins both sticks and gets the banana. This is the intelligence of the animal, which is the same manipulating intelligence that we usually call understanding when talking of people. Reason is something else. Reason is the activity of the mind which attempts to get through the surface to reach the core of things, to grasp what really lies behind these things, what the forces and drives are that — themselves invisible — operate and determine the manifestations.

I have given this description of the mature, i.e. the loving and reasoning individual to better define the essence of the authoritarian personality. The authoritarian character has not reached maturity; he can neither love nor make use of reason. As a result, he is extremely alone which means that he is gripped by a deeply rooted fear. He needs to feel a bond, which requires neither love nor reason — and he finds it in the symbiotic relationship, in feeling-one with others; not by reserving his own identity, but rather by fusing, by destroying his own identity. The authoritarian character needs another person to fuse with because he cannot endure his own aloneness and fear.

But here we reach the boundaries of what both forms of the authoritarian character — the ruling and the ruled — have in common.

The passive-authoritarian, or in other words, the masochistic and submissive character aims — at least subconsciously — to become a part of a larger unit, a pendant, a particle, at least a small one, of this “great” person, this “great” institution, or this “great” idea. The person, institution, or idea may actually be significant, powerful, or just incredibly inflated by the individual believing in them. What is necessary, is that — in a subjective manner — the individual is convinced that “his” leader, party, state, or idea is all-powerful and supreme, that he himself is strong and great, that he is a part of something “greater.” The paradox of this passive form of the authoritarian character is: the individual belittles himself so that he can — as part of something greater — become great himself. The individual wants to receive commands, so that he does not have the necessity to make decisions and carry responsibility. This masochistic individual looking for dependency is in his depth frightened -often only subconsciously — a feeling of inferiority, powerlessness, aloneness. Because of this, he is looking for the “leader,” the great power, to feel safe and protected through participation and to overcome his own inferiority. Subconsciously, he feels his own powerlessness and needs the leader to control this feeling. This masochistic and submissive individual, who fears freedom and escapes into idolatry, is the person on which the authoritarian systems — Nazism and Stalinism — rest.

More difficult than understanding the passive-authoritarian, masochistic character is understanding the active-authoritarian, the sadistic character. To his followers he seems self-confident and powerful but yet he is as frightened and alone as the masochistic character. While the masochist feels strong because he is a small part of something greater, the sadist feels strong because he has incorporated others — if possible many others; he has devoured them, so to speak. The sadistic-authoritarian character is as dependent on the ruled as the masochistic -authoritarian character on the ruler. However the image is misleading. As long as he holds power, the leader appears — to himself and to others — strong and powerful. His powerlessness becomes only apparent when he has lost his power, when he can no longer devour others, when he is on his own.

When I speak of sadism as the active side of the authoritarian personality, many people may be surprised because sadism is usually understood as the tendency to torment and to cause pain. But actually, this is not the point of sadism. The different forms of sadism which we can observe have their root in a striving, which is to master and control another individual, to make him a helpless object of one’s will, to become his ruler, to dispose over him as one sees fit and without limitations. Humiliation and enslavement are just means to this purpose, and the most radical means to this is to make him suffer; as there is no greater power over a person than to make him suffer, to force him to endure pains without resistance.

The fact that both forms of the authoritarian personality can be traced back to one final common point — the symbiotic tendency — demonstrates why one can find both the sadistic and masochistic component in so many authoritarian personalities. Usually, only the objects differ. We all have heard of the family tyrant, who treats his wife and children in an sadistic manner but when he faces his superior in the office he becomes the submissive employee. Or to name a better known example: Hitler. He was driven by the desire to rule all, the German nation and finally the world, to make them powerless objects of his will. And still, this same man was extremely dependent; dependent on the masses’ applause, on his advisers’ approval, and on what he called the higher power of nature, history, and fate. He employed pseudo-religious formulations to express these ideas when for example he said: “the heaven stands above the nation, as one can fortunately mislead man, but not heaven.” However, the power that impressed Hitler more than history, god, or fate was nature. Contrary to the tendency of the last four hundred years to dominate nature, Hitler insisted that one can and should dominate man but never nature. In him, we find this characteristic mixture of sadistic and masochistic tendencies of an authoritarian personality: the nature is the great power which we have to submit to, but the living being is there to be dominated by us.

However, we can hardly close the topic of the authoritarian personality without talking about a problem that is cause for a lot of misunderstandings. When recognition of authority is masochism and its practice sadism, does that mean that all authority contains something pathological? This question fails to make a very significant distinction between rational and irrational authority. Rational authority is the recognition of authority based on critical evaluation of competences. When a student recognizes the teacher’s authority to know more than him, then this a reasonable evaluation of his competence. The same is the case, when I as the passenger of a ship recognize the authority of the captain to make the right and necessary decisions if in danger. Rational authority is not based on excluding my reason and critique but rather assumes it as a prerequisite. This does not make me small and the authority great but allows authority to be superior where and as long it possesses competence.

Irrational authority is different. It is based on emotional submission of my person to another person: I believe in him being right, not because he is, objectively speaking, competent nor because I rationally recognize his competence. In the bonds to the irrational authority, there exists a masochistic submission by making myself small and the authority great. I have to make it great, so that I can — as one of its particles — can also become great. The rational authority tends to negate itself, because the more I understand the smaller the distance to the authority becomes. The irrational authority tends to deepen and to prolong itself. The longer and the more dependent I am the weaker I will become and the more I will need to cling to the irrational authority and submit.

All the great dictatorial movements of our times were (and are) based on irrational authority. Its driving forces were the submissive individual’s feeling of powerlessness, fear, and admiration for the “leader.” All the great and fruitful cultures are founded on the existence of rational authority: on people, who are able to muster the given functions intellectually and socially and have therefore no need to appeal to irrational desires.

But I do not want to close without emphasizing that the individual’s goal must be to become his own authority; i.e. to have a consciousness in moral issues, conviction in questions of intellect, and fidelity in emotional matters. However, the individual can only have such an inner authority if he has matured enough to understand the world with reason and love. The development of these characteristics is the basis for one’s own authority and therefore the basis for political democracy.


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CICERO
October 25, 2015, 11:32am Report to Moderator

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Quoted Text
The authoritarian character has not reached maturity; he can neither love nor make use of reason. As a result, he is extremely alone which means that he is gripped by a deeply rooted fear. He needs to feel a bond, which requires neither love nor reason — and he finds it in the symbiotic relationship, in feeling-one with others; not by reserving his own identity, but rather by fusing, by destroying his own identity. The authoritarian character needs another person to fuse with because he cannot endure his own aloneness and fear.



"YES WE CAN"


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Box A Rox
October 25, 2015, 11:33am Report to Moderator

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Quoted from CICERO
The AUTHORITARIAN is not "mature" and fears freedom.  The AUTHORITARIAN  is convinced that “his” leader, party, state, or idea is all-powerful and supreme, that he himself is strong and great, that he is a part of something “greater.” The paradox of this passive form of the authoritarian character is: the individual belittles himself so that he can — as part of something greater — become great himself. The individual wants to receive commands, so that he does not have the necessity to make decisions and carry responsibility.


Wow!  Cissy did his homework instead of just making up text again!
Way to go Cissy!!!

I wonder how much Cissy actually researched his new best friend's politics.  This may be informative
for the politically inexperienced like Cicero:
Quoted Text
The culmination of Fromm's social and political philosophy was his book
The Sane Society, published in 1955, which argued in favor of a humanistic and democratic
socialism
.
(Democratic Socialism??? Cissy??? A Democratic Socialist?  )
Building primarily upon the early works of Karl Marx, Fromm sought to re-emphasise the ideal
of freedom, missing from most Soviet Marxism and more frequently found in the writings of
libertarian socialists and liberal theoreticians.

(Huh!  Cissy is promoting a Marxist!  Who knew?)
Even more surprising is Cissy's new dogma based on his BFFL
Quoted Text
Fromm became one of the founders of socialist humanism, promoting the early writings
of Marx
and his humanist messages to the US and Western European public.


Ya never know what direction Cissy's politics will land.  One day he's Conservative Right Winger...
the next a Libertarian, then an Anarchist, and today Cicero joins the room as a full fledged
Marxist Humanist.  
(Who knows... tomorrow Cissy may wake up a Flamin Liberal! )


The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral
philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.

John Kenneth Galbraith

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CICERO
October 25, 2015, 11:57am Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Box A Rox

Wow!  Cissy did his homework instead of just making up text again!
Way to go Cissy!!!

I wonder how much Cissy actually researched his new best friend's politics.  This may be informative
for the politically inexperienced like Cicero:

(Huh!  Cissy is promoting a Marxist!  Who knew?)
Even more surprising is Cissy's new dogma based on his BFFL


Ya never know what direction Cissy's politics will land.  One day he's Conservative Right Winger...
the next a Libertarian, then an Anarchist, and today Cicero joins the room as a full fledged
Marxist Humanist.  
(Who knows... tomorrow Cissy may wake up a Flamin Liberal! )


I know EXACTLY who he is and his politics.  That's why I presented it to you.  How are you going to discredit the source?  He's on your side of the political spectrum. LMAO   

Ya still can't find that box to put me in...I'm a "right winger", "libertarian", "anarchist", and now "Marxist"(I think I was labeled at "tea partier" at one time too)...And I don't vote...Hmmmmm....


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Box A Rox
October 25, 2015, 12:07pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from CICERO


Ya still can't find that box to put me in...I'm a "right winger", "libertarian", "anarchist", and now "Marxist"(I think I was labeled at "tea partier" at one time too)...And I don't vote...Hmmmmm....


Yes cicero, you change political perswasions as often as you change your socks.
Tomorrow you will be posting the views of Radical Islam!
Oh wait... you already did that with your bffl Anwar.


The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral
philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.

John Kenneth Galbraith

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CICERO
October 25, 2015, 12:31pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Box A Rox


Yes cicero, you change political perswasions as often as you change your socks.
Tomorrow you will be posting the views of Radical Islam!
Oh wait... you already did that with your bffl Anwar.


Yes...And you are consistently AUTHORITARIAN.  As you've demonstrated many times on many different topics.  From compulsory medical insurance, to controlling guns, to your justification for extrajudicial executions.  

Your defense of extrajudicial killing of citizens placed on secret presidential "kill lists" is your best example of submission to an irrational authority, and shows that you are convinced that “your” leader, party, state, or idea is all-powerful and supreme and does not need to subject himself to the checks and balance of the judicial system.  After all, your leader was helping you feel "SAFE" from the scary world around you.


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BuckStrider
October 25, 2015, 6:00pm Report to Moderator

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"Approval ratings go up and down for various reasons... An example is the high post 911 support for
GWB even though he could be said to be responsible for the event." --- Box A Rox '9/11 Truther'

Melania is a bimbo... she is there to look at, not to listen to. --- Box A Rox and his 'War on Women'

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Box A Rox
October 25, 2015, 6:33pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from CICERO


Yes...And you are consistently AUTHORITARIAN.  As you've demonstrated many times on many different topics.  From compulsory medical insurance, to controlling guns, to your justification for extrajudicial executions.  

Your defense of extrajudicial killing of citizens placed on secret presidential "kill lists" is your best example of submission to an irrational authority, and shows that you are convinced that “your” leader, party, state, or idea is all-powerful and supreme and does not need to subject himself to the checks and balance of the judicial system.  After all, your leader was helping you feel "SAFE" from the scary world around you.


Compulsory medical insurance:
My feeling is that, like compulsory car insurance, it protects the general public from people like YOU
who would rather not buy insurance but instead pocket the premium money, then when you need
health care, you just show up at an ER bleeding, and the hospital will fix your wound, AND BILL ME
AND THE OTHER TAX PAYERS.
Another choice would be for a COMPULSORY fund that you put in to a bank that can only be used for
your medical emergencies when needed.
See... you get to keep your $$$ and the taxpayers won't have to pay for your sorry a** when you are
bleeding and in need of care.

Guns:
If you need a license and insurance and to pass a test to drive a car, then you need a license and
insurance and a test to own a gun.  I know you prefer the chaos, but most of society would
prefer that toddlers, the mentally insane and criminals are not allowed to possess guns.

Executions:
I am against the death penalty.  In those rare cases when a criminal cannot be captured safely
the use of a SWAT team is acceptable to protect the life of the innocent or the police.  

Kinda blows your "authoritarian argument out of the water doesn't it!


The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral
philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.

John Kenneth Galbraith

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CICERO
October 25, 2015, 6:42pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Box A Rox



Kinda blows your "authoritarian argument out of the water doesn't it!


No...You just summarized some of your authoritarian viewpoints.  You've voiced your disdain for individualism many times in the past.  I believe you call it selfishness.


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Box A Rox
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Quoted from CICERO


No...You just summarized some of your authoritarian viewpoints.


So you feel that being against the death penalty is an "authoritarian viewpoint"?


The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral
philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.

John Kenneth Galbraith

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CICERO
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Quoted from Box A Rox


So you feel that being against the death penalty is an "authoritarian viewpoint"?


Hmmmm...Let me see...I would say your desire to limit clips to 7 bullets or less, or face punishment of a fine or jail for more than 7 rounds is bit authoritarian.  Too boot, under the authoritarian NYSAFE Act, those in law enforcement and retired law enforcement are exempt from the "large capacity" magazine ban imposed onto the state's subjects.

Though you are against the death penalty and would likely oppose killing a person for possessing an unauthorized 15 round clip, you would have no problem forcibly taking his money or throwing him into jail for merely being in possession of a clip that a retired cop is allowed to have.



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Box A Rox
October 25, 2015, 9:13pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from CICERO


Hmmmm...Let me see...I would say your desire to limit clips to 7 bullets or less, or face punishment of a fine or jail for more than 7 rounds is bit authoritarian.  Too boot, under the authoritarian NYSAFE Act, those in law enforcement and retired law enforcement are exempt from the "large capacity" magazine ban imposed onto the state's subjects.

Though you are against the death penalty and would likely oppose killing a person for possessing an unauthorized 15 round clip, you would have no problem forcibly taking his money or throwing him into jail for merely being in possession of a clip that a retired cop is allowed to have.


So... let me rephrase my question:
Quoted Text
Quoted from Box A Rox
So you feel that being against the death penalty is an "authoritarian viewpoint"?



The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral
philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.

John Kenneth Galbraith

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CICERO
October 25, 2015, 9:33pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Box A Rox

So... let me rephrase my question:



Are you against the death penalty?  You support American citizens being placed on a presidential "kill lists" for a year, without any formal charges being brought against them or warrant issued for arrest.  So though you may claim the AL-Awlaki drone assassination was justified because he was an "imminent threat" to public safety(like a SWAT response), you still seem to have no issue with the fact he was never charged with a crime or issued an arrest warrant.  Pretty authoritarian IMO.

Now that we have that out of the way...what do you think about those gunhuggers with 15 or 30 clips - jail'em?



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Box A Rox
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Quoted from CICERO


Are you against the death penalty?  You support American citizens being placed on a presidential "kill lists" for a year, without any formal charges being brought against them or warrant issued for arrest.  So though you may claim the AL-Awlaki drone assassination was justified because he was an "imminent threat" to public safety(like a SWAT response), you still seem to have no issue with the fact he was never charged with a crime or issued an arrest warrant.  Pretty authoritarian IMO.

Now that we have that out of the way...what do you think about those gunhuggers with 15 or 30 clips - jail'em?



Do I support American citizens being put on kill lists?
In most cases NO.
Do I support the police shooting an American citizen when an arrest could have been made?
In most cases NO.

You can spin your agenda all you want Cicero, but it doesn't change the FACTS.
What you are posting is YOUR OPINION of MY VIEWS.  And as such, you fail miserably.

SO... Do I support the drone strike against Terrorist AL-Awlaki?
I would much prefer that he was captured, but if the choice is to let him go free to continue his
terror attacks on American citizens or to Drone his sorry @ss... then yea, I support killing him.

How did you put it?  Now that we have that out of the way... we can proceed.  
You still haven't answered my question... I'll ask it for the third time:
Quoted Text
Quoted from Box A Rox
So you feel that being against the death penalty is an "authoritarian viewpoint"?


The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral
philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.

John Kenneth Galbraith

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senders
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Box never looks in the mirror


...you are a product of your environment, your environment is a product of your priorities, your priorities are a product of you......

The replacement of morality and conscience with law produces a deadly paradox.


STOP BEING GOOD DEMOCRATS---STOP BEING GOOD REPUBLICANS--START BEING GOOD AMERICANS

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