Henry, I was there (and left country) in 1971, so I can attest to most everything in this article as real. Where it fails is to present some of the other underlying issues that caused such decline in morale, etc. You will find very little written that discusses the Government imposed limitations that we were under in Vietnam, preventing us from doing what we thought we were charged with doing. There will be very little you will find written about the issues we encountered with the South Vietnamese military; the infiltration of VC in both the south army and even civilian workers....people we would tell command about, many times too late as they would disappear. You will find very little written about the war within the war that we were faced with. .
I heard similar stories coming out of Iraq and Afghanistan where the enemy would infiltrate the forces our soldiers were training only to use that training against them. Actually I heard it was pretty common in the Iraqi military and Afghan forces, even translators that were hired were working for the enemy. So I'm not doubting that took place and I won't deny that probably dropped morale a lot for our soldiers, but it goes to show why we need to stay the hell out of nation building and stop using our troops as pawns. If people like L4L can save a life by being vocal against a war we should back him and others like him, you don't need to like his style but when it comes to life that is what is important. You should watch the video I posted here called wartorn, its amazing how many parents were gun ho about the military until reality sets in and their sons or daughters end up blowing their brains out after they returned from overseas for what they done over there. I read all the crap box posts showing all these quotes about how big and bad the Marines are but its all BS, those quotes and those attitudes killed a lot of our men and women who were fed that garbage. He is one of the lucky ones as were you for making it home, I don't get the vibe that you would want anyone in your family to experience what you went through, I can't say the same for box. You 2 might be brothers in arms but you should speak out against his crap because I'm sure you know a lot of what he is pushing is bs propaganda.
"In the beginning of a change, the Patriot is a scarce man, brave, hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a Patriot."
I heard similar stories coming out of Iraq and Afghanistan where the enemy would infiltrate the forces our soldiers were training only to use that training against them. Actually I heard it was pretty common in the Iraqi military and Afghan forces, even translators that were hired were working for the enemy. So I'm not doubting that took place and I won't deny that probably dropped morale a lot for our soldiers, but it goes to show why we need to stay the hell out of nation building and stop using our troops as pawns. If people like L4L can save a life by being vocal against a war we should back him and others like him, you don't need to like his style but when it comes to life that is what is important. You should watch the video I posted here called wartorn, its amazing how many parents were gun ho about the military until reality sets in and their sons or daughters end up blowing their brains out after they returned from overseas for what they done over there. I read all the crap box posts showing all these quotes about how big and bad the Marines are but its all BS, those quotes and those attitudes killed a lot of our men and women who were fed that garbage. He is one of the lucky ones as were you for making it home, I don't get the vibe that you would want anyone in your family to experience what you went through, I can't say the same for box. You 2 might be brothers in arms but you should speak out against his crap because I'm sure you know a lot of what he is pushing is bs propaganda.
Henry. You make a lot of assumptions, and it appears much of it is based on your agenda.
When I first met Cicero on this board, I "enlightened" him to a book called "War is a Racket" by Marine Major General Smedley Butler. I am primarily "anti war" although viewed through your eyes, I'm sure that sounds laughable. I also believe in a strong military... but I oppose the present system which is no more than a cash cow for big business and lobbyists. We spend way too much on the military, but even worse we spend too much on the trivial and ignore the important.
My time in Vietnam was both good and bad. Inspite of what you read from the 'haters' I have no regrets about my conduct in the war. There are times that I wish I never went to Vietnam but if I hadn't, I might be as blind as the haters on this board. Overall, my Vietnam experience opened my eyes and I would never want to go back to being "blind" again.
My time in the Marines, and especially my time in Vietnam taught me a lot about how things are and about how things are perceived.
As posted before, it's been my experience that "Haters" eventually end up turning their "HATE" on themselves, not on their targets.
There are times on this board that I just sit and laugh at how some posters perceive the world around them. They read it once, so it must be true... especially if it fits their political agenda.
Too many on this board, blame the war on the warrior. A simplistic answer, but it fits a simple mind.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. John Kenneth Galbraith
I heard similar stories coming out of Iraq and Afghanistan where the enemy would infiltrate the forces our soldiers were training only to use that training against them. Actually I heard it was pretty common in the Iraqi military and Afghan forces, even translators that were hired were working for the enemy. So I'm not doubting that took place and I won't deny that probably dropped morale a lot for our soldiers, but it goes to show why we need to stay the hell out of nation building and stop using our troops as pawns. If people like L4L can save a life by being vocal against a war we should back him and others like him, you don't need to like his style but when it comes to life that is what is important. You should watch the video I posted here called wartorn, its amazing how many parents were gun ho about the military until reality sets in and their sons or daughters end up blowing their brains out after they returned from overseas for what they done over there. I read all the crap box posts showing all these quotes about how big and bad the Marines are but its all BS, those quotes and those attitudes killed a lot of our men and women who were fed that garbage. He is one of the lucky ones as were you for making it home, I don't get the vibe that you would want anyone in your family to experience what you went through, I can't say the same for box. You 2 might be brothers in arms but you should speak out against his crap because I'm sure you know a lot of what he is pushing is bs propaganda.
Let me address some points individually.... > L4L....his tirades and hatred of military and "spitting" obsession in no way should be applauded as intent or able to save a life as you say. His is personal for reasons that will never be posted. Believe me when I say, he is far from someone to respect as fighting to save lives. > I do not wish for anyone to have to go through a military conflict of any sort, even if that person was L4L....war is hell and can/will fcuk-up the life of everyone it touches....it has far reaching impacts. HOWEVER,if I agree with a declared conflict or not, I FULLY SUPPORT EACH AND EVERY SOLDIER, SAILOR, MARINE AND AIR FORCE MEMBER THAT SERVES IN THE CONFLICT. I can hate the conflict, I can be vocal against the conflict, BUT I SUPPORT EACH AND EVERY TROOP. > You and others may think a lot of what Box posts is crap, but I'm sure you are not looking at everything in the same way as him. I think many things you post that I've read is crap, and have told you so...but I've also said you have a right to your opinion. Here's a fact that you and others may or may not choose to believe...I didn't join the Military at 19 to go to war and kill people...I honestly joined thinking that I was going to be part of an Organization that would defend the right of all people around the world to live free and enjoy the same rights of free speech and freedom we have always believed in....so when I say you have the right to your opinion, it's honest. Also, I understand Box and only others that are part of that unique brotherhood that served together and experienced the same things can understand....we simply cannot expect those outside of that group to really understand....that's also why you will rarely find a Viet Vet that talks about specific actions during their tour to people outside of our group....and if they do, it's usually not true. We know we were viewed as murderers and all that other nonsense....but we also know the truth of who we are and why we did what we did. Of course, there were too many "Rambos" unfortunately, and that is what the haters will focus on. personally, I hold my head high without reserve.
If you read a post I did earlier you will see the first experience I have ever had when shopping and was approached by an immigrant from Vietnam. His words and desire to thank me is an unexpected validation that I did something worthwhile, regardless of the opinion of a few haters.
With that said, I'm tired of this idiocy and choose to retire from further replies to ignorant haters. Ignorance is a way of life for some who are angered by their own inability to achieve success or credibility in life, so they take to using cyberspace and attacks....but go postal when are treated in kind.
Peace and best!
JUST BECAUSE SISSY SAYS SO DOESN'T MAKE IT SO...BUT HE THINKS IT DOES!!!!! JUST BECAUSE MC1 SAYS SO DOESN'T MAKE IT SO!!!!!
Too many on this board, blame the war on the warrior. A simplistic answer, but it fits a simple mind.
There is the problem right there you can't have a war without the warrior, so as much as you don't like it you do have to take partial blame. Sure there is others to blame as well, including politicians and those who benefit off your blood and the blood you spill. All of them get the blame from the anti-war crowd here so lets clear that up, we all blasted the MIC and the war hawk politicians. I guess its hard for me and others to understand how someone could kill because they were ordered to, as my article stated many refused to follow that order and they were more then willing to face the consequences as long as they could keep a clear conscience. Because those soldiers stood by their beliefs they were labeled cowards, traitors, and weak, those names are still used against them even by their own Marines, all because they didn't obey a order they knew in their heart was wrong. You yourself ridiculed them here before.
"In the beginning of a change, the Patriot is a scarce man, brave, hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a Patriot."
Also, I understand Box and only others that are part of that unique brotherhood that served together and experienced the same things can understand....we simply cannot expect those outside of that group to really understand....that's also why you will rarely find a Viet Vet that talks about specific actions during their tour to people outside of our group....and if they do, it's usually not true. We know we were viewed as murderers and all that other nonsense....but we also know the truth of who we are and why we did what we did.
!
So here is a question why did you do what you did? Did you believe our way of life was worth forcing on them through military force, that's a serious question not a mock. Also fast forward to today, we lost the war yet Vietnam is now one of our greatest traders, we didn't win yet here they are doing well. Can it be that our way of life is not what others want and that should be respected?
"In the beginning of a change, the Patriot is a scarce man, brave, hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a Patriot."
There is the problem right there you can't have a war without the warrior, so as much as you don't like it you do have to take partial blame.
SO EASY WHEN YOU ARE NOT THE ONE PAYING THE PRICE!
I have a better analogy... YOU CAN'T HAVE A WAR WITH OUT A TAXPAYER. YES YOU ARE TO BLAME! Just as I can take credit/blame for ObamaCare, the American citizens, (not Cissy, he doesn't vote) are to blame for the war.
OR... Blame the businessman. HE produces the weapons of war... if he refused to produce the weapons, there could be no war!
OR Blame the politicians... (Now we're getting somewhere). If politicians refused to authorize war and if one was started with out authorization, they could defund it in a matter of weeks. Politicians DO have the power to stop a war or to prevent one. They DO HAVE A VOTE in our wars, the US MIlitary DOES NOT!
Continue to blame the warrior if you must... but think about it for a minute... who has the most to lose in a war? The politician? maybe. The taxpayer... he may lose a few bucks. The warrior??? To the Warrior, the war isn't an abstract value... it's his life, his blood, his pain and it may be the rest of his life flat on his back at the Albany VA!
What did YOU lose in the Vietnam war? Did you bleed? Did you get jungle rot, trench foot, intestinal parasites, malaria, exposed to herbicides? You exempt yourself from any blame for the war, while you blame the one person who had the most to lose in the war... The Warrior!
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. John Kenneth Galbraith
So here is a question why did you do what you did? Because I didn't and still don't believe what I was there for was wrong! Did you believe our way of life was worth forcing on them through military force, that's a serious question not a mock. You are mislead if you thnk we were there to impose our way of life. First of all, we were brought into the conflict as request from our ally and the South Vietnamese. Little did we know that the French would abandon us after creating such a huge debacle. Secondly, we had no desire to impose our way of life; we were there to try and preserve the freedom that the South Vietnamese wanted. Also fast forward to today, we lost the war yet Vietnam is now one of our greatest traders, we didn't win yet here they are doing well. Can it be that our way of life is not what others want and that should be respected? We trade/have traded with each and every country that we have been involved in a conflict with. We attempt to bring some semblance of growth to each of them in hopes of improving their existence. You repeated several times about imposing our way of life....I'm not sure I understand that. I am not aware of entering into armed conflict because we wanted to impose our way of life...I believe our involvements have been to preserve freedom and counter Naziism, Communism, facist, etc. or as a direct response to threats to our freedoms.
Side note: My company asked me to go to Vietnam for work purposes... I refused. I knew it would not be accepted well, but I simply could not support their intent. Of course, with or without me it was going to happen, but I needed to let my feelings be know.
JUST BECAUSE SISSY SAYS SO DOESN'T MAKE IT SO...BUT HE THINKS IT DOES!!!!! JUST BECAUSE MC1 SAYS SO DOESN'T MAKE IT SO!!!!!
So here is a question why did you do what you did? Did you believe our way of life was worth forcing on them through military force, that's a serious question not a mock. Also fast forward to today, we lost the war yet Vietnam is now one of our greatest traders, we didn't win yet here they are doing well. Can it be that our way of life is not what others want and that should be respected?
When I went to Vietnam I went there to DO GOOD. You may not understand that but it's the truth. You look back on the outcome and judge others by what you learned in the 40 years since the war.
For example,
Quoted Text
Dr. Tom Dooley's historic book "Deliver Us From Evil" which tells of his time, immediately after the 1954 accords ended the French-Indochina war, running the refugee camp at Haiphong through which some 600,000 North Vietnamese passed trying to escape to the south. (THEY WERE GOING SOUTH TO ESCAPE FROM COMMUNISM) From the very beginning North Vietnam persecuted Catholics, and Dooley describes some of this in sickening detail - school children bound and mutilated by having chopsticks shoved into their ears so that they could no longer listen to religious teachings, priests hung upside-down and beaten almost to death with bamboo sticks, etc.
Those stories and many more were true. Which side would you fight on? The side who shoved chopsticks in kids ears??? Or Would you respond to the Republic of Vietnam's request for aid to help them push back a communist invasion from the north?
Henry, you're betting on a football game once you've watched the game and know who will win... My country asked me for help and I helped. Ask not what your country can do for you... ask what YOU CAN DO FOR YOUR COUNTRY! JFK
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. John Kenneth Galbraith
You exempt yourself from any blame for the war, while you blame the one person who had the most to lose in the war... The Warrior![/b]
You're right I don't take any responsibility for the war because I won't fight or die for something I don't believe in. I would be the one you would call a traitor because I stood by my beliefs, for some reason I could live with that, I'm not sure if I could live with myself knowing I took another life because of the orders of someone who supposedly has some authority over me. This is why I asked Joe a serious question, in return I can expect maybe some reasonable answer which I couldn't get from you.
"In the beginning of a change, the Patriot is a scarce man, brave, hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a Patriot."
You're right I don't take any responsibility for the war because I won't fight or die for something I don't believe in. I would be the one you would call a traitor because I stood by my beliefs, for some reason I could live with that, I'm not sure if I could live with myself knowing I took another life because of the orders of someone who supposedly has some authority over me. This is why I asked Joe a serious question, in return I can expect maybe some reasonable answer which I couldn't get from you.
Would you fight in the American revolution??? The Civil war? WW2?
Look back on history and you can find justification... but you don't have that advantage. The next war may be as important as the American Revolution... but you will only know that AFTER THE WAR IS OVER... READING A HISTORY BOOK 20 YEARS FROM NOW. So do you join... or sit and wait for history to tell you if you should have joined?
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. John Kenneth Galbraith
I believe our involvements have been to preserve freedom and counter Naziism, Communism, facist, etc.
By countering them you mean eliminating what many were chosen as by the people, I don't like them as much as you do but that is up for them to decide and change. Many fascist and commies were elected into power, so until that threatened our way of life it was none of our concern. Even today how many countries and elected governments have we overthrown in the name of freedom, but after looking closer we have only propped up dictators who abused their citizens, we gave them the money and military power to do it. You know I'm right because you agreed with me before on the same topic.
"In the beginning of a change, the Patriot is a scarce man, brave, hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a Patriot."
Would you fight in the American revolution??? The Civil war? WW2?
Look back on history and you can find justification... but you don't have that advantage. The next war may be as important as the American Revolution... but you will only know that AFTER THE WAR IS OVER... READING A HISTORY BOOK 20 YEARS FROM NOW. So do you join... or sit and wait for history to tell you if you should have joined?
I would fight if I knew my way of life was on the line or if I knew in doing so would bring a better future and hopefully another generation of freedom. None of those have been on the line in over 60 years but here we are fighting wars but in the same time losing freedoms, maybe we are fighting the wrong enemies.
"In the beginning of a change, the Patriot is a scarce man, brave, hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a Patriot."
I would fight if I knew my way of life was on the line or if I knew in doing so would bring a better future and hopefully another generation of freedom. None of those have been on the line in over 60 years but here we are fighting wars but in the same time losing freedoms, maybe we are fighting the wrong enemies.
I don't look at all the wars since WW2 as the same. Korea was a success, and South Korea is free. Kuwait was invaded by Iraq over Oil. Is that the world you want to live in... where any bully can take over what he wants just because he has the military power to do so... and you will sit by and watch... until it's the rest of the world against you.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. John Kenneth Galbraith
By countering them you mean eliminating what many were chosen as by the people.
NO I mean providing support and help to those that choose not to have those ideologies forced upon them. You say "many chosen" and I say "many chose not". The ideologies we noted are all intended to eliminate freedom and impose strict control.
JUST BECAUSE SISSY SAYS SO DOESN'T MAKE IT SO...BUT HE THINKS IT DOES!!!!! JUST BECAUSE MC1 SAYS SO DOESN'T MAKE IT SO!!!!!
Henry. You make a lot of assumptions, and it appears much of it is based on your agenda.
When I first met Cicero on this board, I "enlightened" him to a book called "War is a Racket" by Marine Major General Smedley Butler. I am primarily "anti war" although viewed through your eyes, I'm sure that sounds laughable. I also believe in a strong military... but I oppose the present system which is no more than a cash cow for big business and lobbyists. We spend way too much on the military, but even worse we spend too much on the trivial and ignore the important.
My time in Vietnam was both good and bad. Inspite of what you read from the 'haters' I have no regrets about my conduct in the war. There are times that I wish I never went to Vietnam but if I hadn't, I might be as blind as the haters on this board. Overall, my Vietnam experience opened my eyes and I would never want to go back to being "blind" again.
My time in the Marines, and especially my time in Vietnam taught me a lot about how things are and about how things are perceived.
As posted before, it's been my experience that "Haters" eventually end up turning their "HATE" on themselves, not on their targets.
There are times on this board that I just sit and laugh at how some posters perceive the world around them. They read it once, so it must be true... especially if it fits their political agenda.
Too many on this board, blame the war on the warrior. A simplistic answer, but it fits a simple mind.
no one blamed the warrior....everyone blamed the glamorizing of being a warrior for 'good', when in fact at 18years old the only thing good are the ideals in one's head....that violently gets removed in war controlled by, not the warrior and their ideals, but by others who NEVER NEVER tell the truth of 'why war'....
EVERYONE is a hero in life...most times never seen...one just hopes to leave this earth without anyone seeing their weak-bad side and only remembering their good moments....
for the machine to make soldiers heroes any more than anyone else just to cover up what the machine's true agenda is, is what everyone is fighting against.....
soldiers ARE pawns, and most folks don't like to be thought of as less than just because they didn't CHOOSE that path...because in their lives they are heroes TOO.....not any less, not any more.....just with less political fanfare...
...you are a product of your environment, your environment is a product of your priorities, your priorities are a product of you......
The replacement of morality and conscience with law produces a deadly paradox.
STOP BEING GOOD DEMOCRATS---STOP BEING GOOD REPUBLICANS--START BEING GOOD AMERICANS
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