"In the beginning of a change, the Patriot is a scarce man, brave, hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a Patriot."
Great graphic. Under Obama the accuracy and effectiveness increases and the number of civilians decreased. Interesting also are the labels... the only place that Al Qaeda or Taliban show up is in the "OTHER" group.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. John Kenneth Galbraith
So far on Cicero's graphic, there are NO AlQaeda killed by drones (Of course even Cic knows better) So far on Cicero's graphic, there are NO Taliban killed by drones (again, not true) There are 61 children listed as killed in Drone Strikes under Obama. There are almost 400 civilians listed as killed under Obama. How many of those civilians are actually "innocent" civilians... how many are civilian operatives working for Al Qaeda/Talliban. In Cic's list a civilian Truck Driver hired by Bin Laden to transport munitions would be on Cicero's "CIVILIAN" count. A 'Spy' working for Al Qaeda, would appear on the CIVILIAN list... Children used as 'suicide bombers' would also not be counted as ENEMY but as civilian.
76% of those killed on Cicero's graphic are listed as "OTHER" ! "OTHER" ??? A Man holding an RPG but not in uniform is... well he's an OTHER. A group of 5 men inside a shed building EOD's when the DRONE hit, were listed as "OTHER" .
Since there are no actual AlQaeda/Talliban on Cicero's list, here are just a few taken out under Obama:
~ Osama bin Laden, ~ Anwar al-Awlaki ~ al Qaeda’s chief of Pakistan operations, Abu Hafs al-Shahri, ~ ‘Atiyah ‘Abd al-Rahman, the deputy leader of al Qaeda ~ One of the group’s most dangerous commanders, Ilyas Kashmiri, was killed in Pakistan. ~ In Yemen AQAP senior operative Ammar al-Wa’ili, ~ In Yemen AQAP senior operativeAbu Ali al-Harithi, ~ In Yemen AQAP senior operativeAli Saleh Farhan ~ In Somalia, (AQEA) senior leader Harun Fazul ~ The arrest of Younis al-Mauritani in Quetta, captured with Drone Technology ~ Tehrik e-Taliban Pakistan leader Baitullah Mahsud ~ Jemayah Islamiya operational planner Noordin Muhammad Top was killed in Indonesia, ~ AQEA planner Saleh Ali Saleh Nabhan was killed in Somalia. ~ Al Qaeda operational commanders Saleh al-Somali & ~ ‘Abdallah Sa’id ~ Taliban deputy and military commander Abdul Ghani Beradar ~ Haqqani network commander Muhammad Haqqani ~ Lashkar-e Jhangvi leader Qari Zafar ~ Al Qaeda operative Hussein al-Yemeni ~ Senior Jemayah Islamiya operative Dulmatin (mastermind behind the 2002 Bali bombings) ~ Al Qaeda in Iraq leaders Abu Ayyub al-Masri ~ Abu Omar al-Baghdadi ~ Al Qaeda’s number three commander, Sheik Saeed al-Masri ~ Al Qaeda commander Hamza al-Jawfi was
Of course this is just a partial list... the names of many others were not released to protect operatives still in the field.
Civilian casualties are always present in every way and should be kept to a minimum... In WW2, 25 million military died, compared to 50 million civilians. One advantage of Drone technology is that compared to all wars previous, the number of civilian deaths has been greatly reduced.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. John Kenneth Galbraith
I feel safer, thanks. Box just made a case for total war as compared to WWII. Everybody is a potential enemy. Even if you are a civilian not actively engaged in combat doesn't mean you are not a potential threat. That's the same argument for Hiroshima and Nagasaki. America's appetite for mass death hasn't changed in 60 years.
First, both believe the federal government should use drones to kill terrorists, even when they are American citizens.
(Sorry Cicero)
Quoted Text
Second, both Paul and Obama believe that traditional due process does not extend to active terrorists who are American citizens.
(Sorry again Cicero)
Quoted Text
Third, not even Paul thinks that the diversion of a show trial is necessary when the threat of a terrorist attack is "imminent."
Now that Republican Paul and Democrat Obama agree on drone policy, we can get on with the highly successful program of Drone Strikes.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. John Kenneth Galbraith
First, both believe the federal government should use drones to kill terrorists, even when they are American citizens.
(Sorry Cicero)
Quoted Text
Quoted Text Second, both Paul and Obama believe that traditional due process does not extend to active terrorists who are American citizens.
(Sorry again Cicero)[/quote]
Quoted Text
Quoted Text Third, not even Paul thinks that the diversion of a show trial is necessary when the threat of a terrorist attack is "imminent."
Box, there is a HUGE DIFFERENCE between Paul and Obama's drone postions. He explains it in the article, then the writer misleads you to believe it's the same.
It's clear that Paul says the evidence for treason must be provided to a COURT, treason is not decided behind closed doors of the White House. What Paul is suggesting is called TRANSPARENCY box.
It doesn't matter if the person being accused of treason is present, the purpose is for the system of checks and balances to work like it is supposed to. The executive branch still has to make a case to a court, and present all the evidence. Currently it is a secret "kill list" with ZERO oversight.
Man box, what a dupe you are. When the title of the article says "basically the same", that means they are not the same.
Quoted Text
"If you are conspiring to attack America and you are a traitor, I would try you for treason. If you don't come home for the trial, I would try you in absentia. And then the death penalty has been used repeatedly throughout our history for treason."
However, is a trial in absentia really that much closer to traditional due process than what the president does now? If you think about it, it's only physically closer: Paul's solution would take place in a courtroom where other people are granted due process and fair trials. But there's a phrase for a trial where you get the death penalty without the ability to offer a defense: a show trial.
And since the only way the death penalty is going to carried out after a trial in absentia is by a drone, the result of the Paul approach would be the same as in the Obama approach… except that the Obama approach would actually kill the terrorist, while the production of a show trial would be a bit of a tip off for the terrorist that it was time to find a good hiding place.
It's clear that Paul says the evidence for treason must be provided to a COURT, treason is not decided behind closed doors of the White House. What Paul is suggesting is called TRANSPARENCY box.
It doesn't matter if the person being accused of treason is present, the purpose is for the system of checks and balances to work like it is supposed to. The executive branch still has to make a case to a court, and present all the evidence. Currently it is a secret "kill list" with ZERO oversight.
NOPE! Third, not even Paul thinks that the diversion of a show trial is necessary when the threat of a terrorist attack is "imminent."
What the article shows is that (in the event that hell froze over and for some unthinkable reason a 1% Randy Paul were elected president)... US drone policy will continue killing terrorists no matter what their nationality or where they hide.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. John Kenneth Galbraith
NOPE! Third, not even Paul thinks that the diversion of a show trial is necessary when the threat of a terrorist attack is "imminent."
What the article shows is that (in the event that hell froze over and for some unthinkable reason a 1% Randy Paul were elected president)... US drone policy will continue killing terrorists no matter what their nationality or where they hide.
LOL. You left out the part about extrajudicial executions. Paul clearly stated that drone attacks on American citizens would be determined by a court, based on evidence of treason provided by the administration. Do you believe the judicial branch is a rubber stamp to carry out the execution?
And yes, "imminent" means in the act of carrying out a terror operation against the United States. An imminent terror attack isn't walking out of a cafe in Yemen after drinking a coffee and dropping the morning deuce.
Al-Qaida Branch’s Second-In-Command Killed By U.S. Drone In Yemen
Quoted Text
SANAA, Yemen (AP) — The Yemen-based branch of al-Qaida confirmed on Wednesday that the group’s No. 2 figure, a former Guantanamo Bay prisoner, was killed in a U.S. drone strike.
The announcement, posted on militant websites, gave no date for the death of Saudi-born Saeed al-Shihri.
Washington considers the Yemen-based al-Qaida to be the most dangerous offshoot of the terror network after it was linked to several attempted attacks on U.S. targets, including the foiled Christmas Day 2009 bombing of an airliner over Detroit and explosives-laden parcels intercepted the following year aboard cargo flights.
In 2011, a high-profile U.S. drone strike killed U.S.-born Anwar al-Awlaki, who had been linked to the planning and execution of several attacks targeting U.S. and Western interests, including the 2009 attempt on the Detroit-bound airliner and the 2010 plot against cargo planes.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. John Kenneth Galbraith
including the foiled Christmas Day 2009 bombing of an airliner over Detroit
For those who don't remember that was the guy who was escorted around all the TSA checkpoints by a guy in a suit, shhhh nothing to see here.
"In the beginning of a change, the Patriot is a scarce man, brave, hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a Patriot."
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