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bumblethru
January 16, 2013, 11:45am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from BuckStrider


The people didn't fall for anything bumble. This was made in a backroom at midnight and rammed through in less than a week, with no public imput and nobody reading the bill.

Even Cuomo said they rammed it through fast so there wouldn't be anytime to make a run to the gun stores and stock up.


I agree Buck..........but where is the OUTRAGE?? There is still time for OUTRAGE...OPPOSITION....but nothing!!!
The sheople just sit back and buy the bullsh!t!!

ahhhhhhhhhhh.....where are the left over pot smokin', anti-war, anti-government hippies when ya need 'em?
Looks like they are the close to or are the boomers of today that are just satified with gay rites, abortion rites and free sex....'ta hell with the constitution and their constitutional freedoms!! DIMWITS!


When the INSANE are running the ASYLUM
In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule. -- Friedrich Nietzsche


“How fortunate for those in power that people never think.”
Adolph Hitler
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Box A Rox
January 16, 2013, 11:49am Report to Moderator

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Where is the Outrage???
Try Sandy Hook Elementary School...  There's lots of OUTRAGE there.


The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral
philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.

John Kenneth Galbraith

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Henry
January 16, 2013, 11:55am Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Box A Rox
Where is the Outrage???
Try Sandy Hook Elementary School...  There's lots of OUTRAGE there.


And a police matter somehow eliminates the rights for all of us? Sorry Box nobody is buying your BS here anymore.


"In the beginning of a change, the Patriot is a scarce man, brave, hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a Patriot."

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bumblethru
January 16, 2013, 12:15pm Report to Moderator
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this is how nys voted......................

S02230 Votes:
BILL:S02230 DATE:01/15/2013MOTION: YEA/NAY:104/43
Abbate Y Clark Y Gantt Y Kavanag Y McKevit Y Raia NO Solages Y Abinant Y Colton Y Garbari NO Kearns NO McLaugh NO Ramos Y Stec NO Arroyo Y Cook Y Gibson Y Kellner Y Miller Y Reilich NO Steck Y Aubry Y Corwin NO Giglio NO Kim Y Millman Y Rivera ER Stevens Y Barclay NO Crespo ER Gjonaj Y Kolb NO Montesa NO Roberts Y Stirpe Y Barrett Y Crouch NO Glick Y Lalor NO Morelle Y Robinso Y Sweeney Y Barron Y Curran Y Goldfed Y Lavine Y Mosley Y Rodrigu Y Tedisco NO Benedet Y Cusick Y Goodell NO Lentol Y Moya Y Rosa Y Tenney NO Blanken NO Cymbrow Y Gottfri Y Lifton Y Nojay NO Rosenth Y Thiele Y Borelli NO DenDekk Y Graf NO Lope PD NO Nolan Y Rozic Y Titone Y Boyland Y Dinowit Y Gunther NO Lope VJ Y Oaks NO Russell Y Titus Y Braunst Y DiPietr NO Hawley NO Losquad Y O'Donne Y Ryan Y Walter NO Brennan Y Duprey NO Heastie Y Lupardo NO Ortiz Y Saladin NO Weinste Y Brindis NO Englebr Y Henness Y Lupinac Y Otis Y Santaba Y Weisenb Y Bronson Y Espinal Y Hevesi Y Magee NO Palmesa NO Scarbor Y Weprin Y Brook K Y Fahy Y Hikind Y Magnare Y Paulin Y Schimel Y Wright Y Buchwal Y Farrell Y Hooper Y Maisel Y Peoples Y Schimmi NO Zebrows Y Butler NO Finch NO Jacobs Y Malliot Y Perry Y Sepulve Y Mr Spkr Y Cahill Y Fitzpat ER Jaffee Y Markey Y Pretlow Y Simanow Y   Camara Y Friend NO Johns NO Mayer Y Quart Y Simotas Y   Castro Y Gabrysz NO Jordan NO McDonal Y Ra Y Skartad Y   Ceretto NO Galef Y Katz NO McDonou Y Rabbitt NO Skoufis NO


When the INSANE are running the ASYLUM
In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule. -- Friedrich Nietzsche


“How fortunate for those in power that people never think.”
Adolph Hitler
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bumblethru
January 16, 2013, 12:18pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Henry


And a police matter somehow eliminates the rights for all of us? Sorry Box nobody is buying your BS here anymore.


If we were all armed, this kid on anti-depressents wouldn't have succeeded.
it don't take a rocket scientist here folks!!!


When the INSANE are running the ASYLUM
In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule. -- Friedrich Nietzsche


“How fortunate for those in power that people never think.”
Adolph Hitler
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Box A Rox
January 16, 2013, 12:35pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from bumblethru


If we were all armed, this kid on anti-depressents wouldn't have succeeded.
it don't take a rocket scientist here folks!!!


There are 300 million guns in a country of 350 million people... Yea...IF WE WERE ALL ARMED!


The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral
philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.

John Kenneth Galbraith

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rpforpres
January 16, 2013, 12:40pm Report to Moderator

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BuckStrider
January 16, 2013, 12:50pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Box A Rox
Where is the Outrage???
Try Sandy Hook Elementary School...  There's lots of OUTRAGE there.


Your right Boxy, there is outrage over what happened and if the mother was alive I would have NO OBJECTIONS if they put her up for 26 counts of murder....M'Kay.

What she did was TOTALLY 100% irresponsible and I blame her as much, if not more, than her psycho kid....M'Kay!

So, explain now how these new totally unconstitutional gun laws are going to curb another Sandyhook?

You think criminals are going to follow these new laws?

This was a gun grab, plain and simple. Today, you cannot go into a gun shop and buy a 30.06 rifle to go hunting because ALL of them have over a 7 shot magazine/ ammo capacity...You can't even go and buy a fukin' .224 target rifle.





"Approval ratings go up and down for various reasons... An example is the high post 911 support for
GWB even though he could be said to be responsible for the event." --- Box A Rox '9/11 Truther'

Melania is a bimbo... she is there to look at, not to listen to. --- Box A Rox and his 'War on Women'

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rpforpres
January 16, 2013, 1:11pm Report to Moderator

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Buckstider exactly !!!!!!!

Just wondering how do we know her son was having any issues before that tragic day?  Have we heard from his father or brother?  The brother claimed they had not spoken in years.

In fact hardly anyone saw him in a long time.

Was he on any medication for a mental illness?   Did he go off of his medication?  

A few people that knew him said he was smart but shy. Hell in school I was smart and shy. I kept to myself, had a few close friends.

This whole thing stinks big time. Cuomo fasttracking this bill though.  People having to rush to gun stores and I'm sure many of the ones they bought are NOW today considered illegal.

Totally ignoring the Constitution of the United States of America.

IF someone is intent on harming alot of people they will do it, BUT LEAVE the lawabiding citizens alone.
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Box A Rox
January 16, 2013, 1:49pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from BuckStrider


This was a gun grab, plain and simple. Today, you cannot go into a gun shop and buy a 30.06 rifle to go hunting because ALL of them have over a 7 shot magazine/ ammo capacity...You can't even go and buy a fukin' .224 target rifle.



When does NY's gun laws go into effect???


The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral
philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.

John Kenneth Galbraith

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Yossi
January 16, 2013, 1:50pm Report to Moderator
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The Constitution was not ignored.  Nobody banned the right to own a gun.  You do not need an assault rifle unless you're some damn fool who is a bit demented.
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Box A Rox
January 16, 2013, 1:51pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Yossi
The Constitution was not ignored.  Nobody banned the right to own a gun.  You do not need an assault rifle unless you're some damn fool who is a bit demented.


Um... Yossi... They are damn fools and they are more than a bit demented!


The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral
philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.

John Kenneth Galbraith

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CICERO
January 16, 2013, 1:55pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Yossi
The Constitution was not ignored.  Nobody banned the right to own a gun.  You do not need an assault rifle unless you're some damn fool who is a bit demented.


Police officer say they need assault rifles - so yes, I agree, they are very demented people.


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senders
January 16, 2013, 5:05pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted Text
Growing Discontent

The fight over involuntary commitment during the 1980s was in some ways separate from the Reagan agenda. But it was fortuitous since it coincided with the administration's desire to dismantle the liberal era reforms. However to understand why groups made committment an issue in the 1980s, we have to take a step back and look at reforms that occurred during the 1960s.

During the early 1960s a series of initiatives designed to reform the mental health system were passed. At issue was the system of state run hospitals for the mentally ill, which were increasingly perceived as inhumane and, with the help of new medicat ions, rather unnecessary for large portions of the patient population. In 1961, the Joint Commission on Mental Illness released Action for Mental Health, calling for the integration of the mentally ill into the general public with the aid of Commun ity Mental Health Centers. In 1963, the Mental Retardation Facilities and Community Mental Health Centers instituted the centers, but due to the financial drain of the Vietnam War during the 1960s and the financial crisis of the 1970s, the program was not fully funded.1 The result was the release of patients into an environment lacking the Community Mental Health Centers to adequately treat them (Becker and Schulberg, 1976; DeLeonardis and Mauri, 1992; Hollingsworth, 1994; Rachlin, 1974; Rachlin et al, 1975; Saathoff et al, 1992; Shwed, 1978, 1980; Talbott, 1992; Worley and Lowery, 1988;).

By the start of the Carter administration in 1977, involuntary commitment had been restricted to those who were deemed as potentially dangerous to themselves or, perhaps more significantly, those around them.2 Typically, the commitment had to be sponsored by a family member and/or ordered by the court. A result of this policy was that the mentally ill patient who refused treatment typically did not receive any at all. If the patient had lost contact with family members, she or he would not be committed unless found to be a threat by the court. Often, those arrested ended up in jail rather than in treatment if they had not been found to be a threat but had committed a crime (Abramson, 1972; Conrad and Schneider, 1980). On e result was a high degree of stress and frustration experienced by the relatives of the patient. Throughout the 1970s, family members organized with the purpose of correcting a policy that they perceived was wrong.

Professional organizations also joined the backlash against the liberal era reforms of commitment regulations. One obvious reason for this is self-interest. When some mentally ill patients do not receive treatment, mental health professionals have lost (or never gained) a potential client. These professionals as a group have much to gain in terms of patients and income if the laws governing involuntary commitment are expanded to include those patients who refuse help but do not pose a serious threat to themselves or the people around them.

Perhaps more important than self-interest is the burden that deinstitutionalization put on mental health practitioners. Time spent in court took away time spent with patients. Moreover, the medical profession saw themselves as being second-guessed by o thers outside the medical community: lawyers, judges, policy makers, etc. The treatments that psychiatrists and psychologists viewed as necessary for the well being of the patient often could not be applied because of the legal rights of the patient. Invo luntary commitment would force those who needed care into the hospitals and force patients to keep appointments and take medication. Without commitment, these things were more difficult for the practitioners (La Fond and Durham, 1992, 112-13).

Critics of Community Mental Health charged that in the rush to shrink the state hospital population, many patients were released prematurely (Robitscher, 1976; Yarvis et al, 197. Some patients went off their medications after being released into the community. The criteria of "dangerousness" for civil commitment also meant that some patients who needed treatment but were not a danger could not be committed. As a result, patients whose behavior was considered odd by the community in which they lived were increasingly arrested for bothersome and minor infractions such as vagrancy. These individuals were thus detained in the criminal justice system rather than the mental health system (Abramson, 1972; Conrad and Schneider, 1980).

Groups representing mentally ill patients also organized, but generally did not have the success that groups representing their families and practitioners had. Organizations representing patients, such as the Mental Patients Liberation Front and the Na tional Alliance for the Mentally Ill, lacked the political clout of larger organizations and tended not to be as well funded as the other organizations. Phillip Armour (1989) summarized the situation in this way:

In sum, congressmen do not confront well-funded lobbyists for the mentally disordered in the halls of the Capitol, they typically do not receive large contributions from the residents of state and county mental hospitals or the clients of com munity service centers, and they do not have to calculate the electoral risks of offending a multimillion member association of former mental patients. (187-
Although many groups were interested in seeing reform, there was a general lack of coordination between them. In addition, the interests of each groups shaded in and out of congruence. No two groups saw the situation the same way. This essentially left the political arena open to corporate interests and other well funded organis ations interested in mental health and capable of lobbying the government (e.g., the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American Federation of State, County, and Municipal Employees, etc.). Still, the discontent of the practitioners, families, and patients dealing with the mental health system led to new hearings on mental health care policy.

Shortly after taking office in 1977, President Carter appointed the President's Commission on Mental Health. This commission was charged with assessing the particulars of mental health services, and then making specific suggestions on how things should be changed. The commission collected data by holding regional hearings in order to hear testimony from professionals, relatives of the mentally ill, and other politicians. This technique has been utilized as a politically conspicuous means of proving tha t action is being taken, but often has little merit in terms of scientific methodology.3 The final reports from the commission and its task forces were characterized in this way by Levine (1981: 179):

The quality of the Task Panel reports vary widely; apparently its members understood their instructions very differently. The reports range from very brief ones, which look as if they had been written by someone on the plane on the way to the meeting, to well-thought out analytic reviews. Some consist of little more than a list of recommendations. No more than a third of the Task Panel reports would pass muster as scholarly documents. The preparation of the reports was sloppy. Many are poorly written. Citations made in the body of the report do not appear in the bibliographies. Citations for key points are often to unpublished sources. To be fair, it should be stated that some of the Task Panels did not expect their reports to be published.
The commission made special references to political interest groups throughout both the task panel reports as well as the final recommendations. After the reports were completed and the Congress attempted to codify these recommendations into law, the l obbying organizations continued to be a presence throughout the process. Some groups were by nature opposed to each other: the National Council of Community Mental Health Centers (NCCMHC) and the National Association of State Mental Health Program Directo rs (NASMHPD), for instance. The former of these groups represents the interests of community mental health centers that would benefit by expanding these services. The latter group represents the directors of state mental hospitals. They would benefit by i ncreases in the funding of such hospitals and reinstitutionalization (Armour, 1989, 185). On this point, the commission searched for a compromise.

The final report of the commission to President Carter contained the recommendations upon which the Mental Health Systems Act of 1980 was based. Despite the methodological flaws of the earlier report, the act was considered a landmark in mental health care policy. The key to the proposals included an increase in funding for Community Mental Health Centers and continued federal government support for such programs. But this ran counter to the financial goals of the Reagan administration, these were of c ourse to reduce federal spending, reduce social programs, and transfer responsibility of many if not most government functions to the individual states. So, the law signed by President Carter was rescinded by Ronald Reagan on August 13, 1981. In accordance with the New Federalism and the demands of capital, mental health policy was now in the hands of individual states.


...you are a product of your environment, your environment is a product of your priorities, your priorities are a product of you......

The replacement of morality and conscience with law produces a deadly paradox.


STOP BEING GOOD DEMOCRATS---STOP BEING GOOD REPUBLICANS--START BEING GOOD AMERICANS

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senders
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Quoted Text
A Supportive Public Climate

The intersection of interests noted above was an important factor in creating an environment within which reactionary reforms could take place. However other environmental factors also played an important role in creating conditions whereby the desires for progressive reform could be co-opted. For example, the goals of the Reagan Administration were well received in some quarters of the National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH). In the 1980s, the NIMH started to come under the leadership of a different cohort of individuals. While the NIMH had originally been led by individuals who had come of age during the Great Depression, the leaders of the 1980s had come of age later. The result was that while the former cohort had been committed to innovations in government al social policy, the latter generation tended to be less interested in actual social policy and more supportive of measures to reduce the cost to the federal government (Armour, 1989, 187).

The Administrations goals of fiscal restraint also received support from the general public due to the perception of a federal government too prone to waste revenues and not address other basic concerns, such as crime prevention. Certain forms of social welfare spending, such as programs for the mentally ill, were perceiv ed as wasteful and thus easy targets for budget cuts (Gans, 1995; Katz, 1989). In contrast, other social programs, such as Social Security, were perceived as being "earned" by the recipients, and thus equitable. Despite the fact that the average Social Se curity recipient receives more in return than they pay into the system, programs such as this are perceived as being a pension for which the recipient has already paid. As such, they are less susceptible to cuts than categorical spending programs, such as community mental health treatment centers. Indeed, Social Security funding per beneficiary increased under the Reagan Administration (Levitan, 1990, 30). Mental health policy lacks the widespread public support that benefits Social Security (Armour, 1989 , 186). In light of this, it is not surprising that the Reagan Administration was able to cut these programs relatively easily (186-7).

The concerns of the general public were also mobilized in the context of fear over the possibility of a patient committing a violent or otherwise anti-social act. Media attention paid to the problems of the mental health system tended to concentrate in two areas: the growing homelessness problem of the early 1980s and the possibility of criminal acts committed by deinsitutionalized patients. Throughout the 1970s and 1980s, hundreds of thousands of mentally ill people concentrated in the inner cities. With the rise of gentrification during the 1980s, many of them became displaced from their relatively affordable housing and were unable to fin d new accommodations. Many of these patients had lost contact with family members and were unable to work, and many did not have health insurance. Thus, they were unable to receive mental health services in the private sector. Media coverage of the growin g homeless problem helped to pressure legislators in many states to rewrite commitment laws to extend the net and make the streets "safer."

This media attention played into, and supported, the growing perception of violent crime as a problem in the United States. The Reagan Administration answered this general alarm by calling for quick and severe punishment of offenders. For those offenders who were not mentally ill, prison was normally seen as the solution (Gans, 1995). For the mentally ill however, involuntary committment seemed the best answer. Either way, quick removal of individuals threatening the social order fit well with the administration's "law and order" stance (LaFond and Durham, 1992, 114).

The new laws, however, were not intended to make it easier to commit the dangerous mentally ill. Rather, the new laws had more general application and made it easier to commit those only considered a threat (Lafond & Durham, 1992, 11. In addition to this, many of the existing liberal justices began to rule on a "right of treatment" clause rather than a straight civil libertarian viewpoint. The result was that at both the state and federal level, the court became increasingly reluctant to strike down legislation that broadened the definition of who was eligible for involuntary commitment (119). Again, this more stringent approach meshed well with the "law and order" stance taken by the administration.


...you are a product of your environment, your environment is a product of your priorities, your priorities are a product of you......

The replacement of morality and conscience with law produces a deadly paradox.


STOP BEING GOOD DEMOCRATS---STOP BEING GOOD REPUBLICANS--START BEING GOOD AMERICANS

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