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Box A Rox
December 31, 2012, 9:54am Report to Moderator

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Quoted from CICERO
Hey box, why do you call them sovereign terrorist?  Is everybody a terrorist now?  If you avoid paying taxes and forge a license plate you are a terrorist?  I thought terrorism was using fear to change government policy.  The sovereign citizens in general are not doing that, they are disengaging and operating outside the government systems.  They are doing quite the opposite of terror.  They don't believe in the legitimacy of government, they aren't trying to change government policy by intimidating the masses with huge acts of violence.  

The belief that the governent doesn't have a right to your money is now terrorism.  WOW


Using rocket launchers, hand grenades, silencers... attacking and attempting to kill Judges, IRS agents,
court employees and police.
Murder.
Blowing up a Federal building killing hundreds...
YEA. Terrorists!


The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral
philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.

John Kenneth Galbraith

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Libertarian4life
December 31, 2012, 10:22am Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Box A Rox


Really?  ONLY ONE MURDER STORY???

Convicted Oklahoma City bombing conspirator Terry Nichols was a member of the sovereign citizen
movement, having asserted individual sovereignty in at least three court cases...

Nichols was convicted of:
~conspiracy to use a weapon of mass destruction,
~ eight counts of involuntary manslaughter for killing federal law enforcement personnel.
~  He was convicted in 2004 of 161 counts of first degree murder
~ first-degree arson; and conspiracy.
~ He was sentenced to 161 consecutive life terms without the possibility of parole.
How did you put it???
"lets waste our resources on a group of people who just want to be left alone."
******************************************************************
On June 18, 2012, Sovergn Citizen Shaffer Cox  wasfound guilty of conspiracy to commit
murder.

"lets waste our resources on a group of people who just want to be left alone."
********************************************************************

An Alaska couple who are anti-government “sovereign citizens” face lengthy prison terms after
pleading guilty Monday to charges they plotted to kill a federal judge and an IRS agent
involved in a tax case against them.

Lonnie Vernon, 56, a member of Schaeffer Cox’s Alaska Peacemakers Militia, and his wife,
Karen Vernon, 66, admitted conspiring to kill U.S. District Court Judge Ralph Beistline and
IRS officer Janice Stowell in 2011 in retaliation for ruling the couple owed more than
$165,000 in back taxes.
The Vernons admitted to buying a gun, silencer and hand grenades, and having a map to the
federal judge’s home.
A GUN, SILENCER AND HAND GRENADES... Tell me again that the Sovereigns
" just want to be left alone."
*****************************************************************

Phoenix res­i­dent and Sovereign Citizen Michael Lee Crane is charged with the murders of an
elderly couple from Paradise Valley, Arizona, and a suspect in a third murder.  Trial is pending.
****************************************************************

Since 2002, six law enforcement officers have been killed during altercations with sovereign
citizens and another four wounded, said FBI Spokeswoman Kathleen Wright.
THEY JUST WANT TO BE LEFT ALONE!


George Washington stockpiled weapons and wanted to be left alone.

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Box A Rox
December 31, 2012, 10:33am Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Libertarian4life

George Washington stockpiled weapons and wanted to be left alone.


George Washington stockpiled weapons but didn't want to be left alone.  He raised an army to attack
and overthrow his present government.
Are you suggesting that the Sovereigns... a few anti government malcontents should be allowed to
overthrow the duly elected government of 300 million people just because they want to???

Timothy McVeigh is no George Washington!  Terry Nichols is no George Washington.  
and...
if the Sovereigns don't like the laws of this land, they can work to change those laws, or they can
leave and start their own country some place else.  

I don't want to pay to register my car... so I shoot a cop... That kind of George Washington???
I don't want to obey the speed limit so I kill a state trooper... George Washington???
I don't want to pay my taxes (but I drive on taxpayer built roads) so I kill an IRS agent???
Do these anti govt crazies remind you of George Washington???


The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral
philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.

John Kenneth Galbraith

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Libertarian4life
December 31, 2012, 10:33am Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Libertarian4life


George Washington stockpiled weapons and wanted to be left alone.



The Native Americans were sovereign terrorists..

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CICERO
December 31, 2012, 10:34am Report to Moderator

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Look at the fear boxy's pushing!  Wow, do these people have "sovereign citizen" cards are something?  Is there a clubhouse they all meet at?  These labels come quick and easy for the FBI.

Gotta love the conspiracy charge, those are usually resulting from the FBI entrapping people by giving them the means and training to carryout something they otherwise would not be capable of.  They do it with the Al Qaeda "terrorists" too.

Gotta keep everybody in perpetual fear, your neighbor might be a sovereign citizen and out to kill you. LOL

This is too funny.  


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Libertarian4life
December 31, 2012, 10:35am Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Box A Rox


George Washington stockpiled weapons but didn't want to be left alone.


He wanted to be left alone by the British Government.

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Libertarian4life
December 31, 2012, 10:37am Report to Moderator

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Quoted from CICERO
Look at the fear boxy's pushing!  Wow, do these people have "sovereign citizen" cards are something?  Is there a clubhouse they all meet at?  These labels come quick and easy for the FBI.

Gotta love the conspiracy charge, those are usually resulting from the FBI entrapping people by giving them the means and training to carryout something they otherwise would not be capable of.  They do it with the Al Qaeda "terrorists" too.

Gotta keep everybody in perpetual fear, your neighbor might be a sovereign citizen and out to kill you. LOL

This is too funny.  


He just goes apeshitt with strawman therefores, and other nonsense.

In his world, no person has the right to be left alone.

He must have caught the Communism virus in Viet Nam.

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Box A Rox
December 31, 2012, 10:40am Report to Moderator

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I think I'll become a Sovereign Citizen.
I'll refuse to pay my taxes... I'll let Cic and L4Life pay my share.
I'll refuse to license my car, buy auto insurance or get a drivers license... I'll let Cic and L4Life pay my way.
I'll refuse to pay my city taxes.  I'll let everyone else pay for my sewer, water, snow plowing, garbage pick up, etc
I'll use all the government provided services... I just won't pay for them.

Great idea.
WOW!
I'm becoming...
... I'm on my way to becoming...
...... I'M ALMOST...
GEORGE WASHINGTON!!!

Who knew becoming a 'Founding Father' would be so easy!!!


The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral
philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.

John Kenneth Galbraith

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Shadow
December 31, 2012, 10:41am Report to Moderator
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There's a sovereign citizen behind every rock and blade of grass.
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Box A Rox
December 31, 2012, 10:43am Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Libertarian4life

He wanted to be left alone by the British Government.


Poor George... he just wanted to be left alone.  (So did his slaves)  


The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral
philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.

John Kenneth Galbraith

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CICERO
December 31, 2012, 10:55am Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Box A Rox


Using rocket launchers, hand grenades, silencers... attacking and attempting to kill Judges, IRS agents,
court employees and police.
Murder.
Blowing up a Federal building killing hundreds...
YEA. Terrorists!


Re-read your original post that linked to the FBI web page (from 2011) they give about 4 examples of "sovereign citizen" crimes.  Most are white collar.  Their top prize is McVeigh/Nichols and Oklahoma City which happened 17 years ago. Yes, a real gathering storm, we've seen such an increase of the "sovereign citizen" movement since 1995.  Why not go back 50 years to Birmingham Alabama to show the rise in racism?

Conclusion:
Although the sovereign-citizen movement does not always rise to violence, its members’ illegal activities and past violent—including fatal—incidents against law enforcement make it a group that should be approached with knowledge and caution. It is important that law enforcement be aware of sovereign citizens’ tactics so agencies can warn the public of potential scams, spot illegal activity and understand its potential severity, and be prepared for and protect against violent behavior or backlash through intimidation and harassment.


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Box A Rox
December 31, 2012, 11:05am Report to Moderator

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Quoted from CICERO


Re-read your original post that linked to the FBI web page (from 2011) they give about 4 examples of "sovereign citizen" crimes.  Most are white collar.  Their top prize is McVeigh/Nichols and Oklahoma City which happened 17 years ago. Yes, a real gathering storm, we've seen such an increase of the "sovereign citizen" movement since 1995.  Why not go back 50 years to Birmingham Alabama to show the rise in racism?



6 cops are killed (Cic hates cops anyway) so... no biggie!
A judge, an IRS agent, a clerk in a county court get attacked... Not a big problem for Cic.
A few murders, a few shootings, a few felony's... all against American Citizens...Cic is not upset.

But

Harm just one hair on a dangerous Al Qaeda terrorist's head... not just a minor terrorist,
but a leader of terrorists...

and CICERO THROWS A HISSY FIT!  

Killing cops, judges, IRS agents... good
Killing a known Al Qaeda terrorist who's intent is to kill as many Americans as possible... IT'S A TRAVESTY
OF JUSTICE!!!


Cicero's selective OUTRAGE!




The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral
philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.

John Kenneth Galbraith

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CICERO
December 31, 2012, 11:17am Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Box A Rox


6 cops are killed (Cic hates cops anyway) so... no biggie!
A judge, an IRS agent, a clerk in a county court get attacked... Not a big problem for Cic.
A few murders, a few shootings, a few felony's... all against American Citizens...Cic is not upset.

But

Harm just one hair on a dangerous Al Qaeda terrorist's head... not just a minor terrorist,
but a leader of terrorists...

and CICERO THROWS A HISSY FIT!  

Killing cops, judges, IRS agents... good
Killing a known Al Qaeda terrorist who's intent is to kill as many Americans as possible... IT'S A TRAVESTY
OF JUSTICE!!!


Cicero's selective OUTRAGE!




You know we live in a nation of 300+ million right?  I can name more murders that happend in Schenectady in 2012 than you can link to sovereign citizens.  Have a little perspective box.  

Maybe your outrage is because IRS Agents, Cops, and Judges were killed.  I know you hold government agents higher than average citizens.


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Box A Rox
December 31, 2012, 11:25am Report to Moderator

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Quoted from CICERO


You know we live in a nation of 300+ million right?  I can name more murders that happend in Schenectady in 2012 than you can link to sovereign citizens.  Have a little perspective box.  

Maybe your outrage is because IRS Agents, Cops, and Judges were killed.  I know you hold government agents higher than average citizens.


Murders happen every day.  Of course they are all serious, but some have larger implications.
A murder over $10 in a bar has little consequences beyond the people involved...
A systematic group of 'criminals', similar to Mafia type Organized Crime, has much larger implications.  
And, a group who's purpose is to overthrow the government of the USA involves EVERY AMERICAN
CITIZEN.  All 300,000,000+ of us.  (Except for you of course... you're an I, not a WE!)


The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral
philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.

John Kenneth Galbraith

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CICERO
December 31, 2012, 11:25am Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Box A Rox

Killing cops, judges, IRS agents... good
Killing a known Al Qaeda terrorist who's intent is to kill as many Americans as possible... IT'S A TRAVESTY OF JUSTICE!!!


What does this have to do with anything?  More red herrings.  You do understand that the federal government has MUCH more power than the average citizen and that due process was established to protect the average citizen from the abuse of that power right?  

I still am impressed by the sheer power of government propaganda that has been able to make you absolutely positive that Awlaki was a "known" terrorist and intended to "kill as many Americans as possible" without the victim getting a chance to make his case.(even after the execution)

You are a danger to liberty and a friend to tyranny.  


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