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Gun Control/The Right To Bear Arms
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Shadow
April 1, 2008, 8:48am Report to Moderator
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People have been spinning the meaning every which way they can to support their point of view. The Bill of Rights is just what it says it is, a list our our individual rights. Why would the founders have to write everything twice to have it enforced. The Congress nor the Supreme Court should never change the Constitution without an amendment voted on by we the people. When liberal judges are appointed you get liberal decisions and when right leaning judges are appointed you get more conservative decisions therefore the Bill of Rights and the Constitution should not be changed by them only interpreted by them.
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bumblethru
April 1, 2008, 11:36am Report to Moderator
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http://www.gpoaccess.gov/constitution/html/amdt2.html
Quoted Text
BEARING ARMS


                               __________

                            SECOND AMENDMENT

  A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free
State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be
infringed.
So is it the 'government' or is it the 'individual citizens' that have the right to keep and bear arms? I find it hard to believe that the writers of our constitution were living in a time where there were no lunatics. Perhaps not like today's loonies, but lunatics just the same. It was a time, I believe, where everyone had guns. They hunted the land for heaven's sake. I don't think the authors of this constitution would move the citizens 'backwards'. I believe that these lawmakers were also looking out for the freedom and safety of the American Citizens to protect themselves from a 'lunatic government/leader' as well.


When the INSANE are running the ASYLUM
In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule. -- Friedrich Nietzsche


“How fortunate for those in power that people never think.”
Adolph Hitler
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senders
April 2, 2008, 7:58pm Report to Moderator
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The 'militia' back then was not on some army base----they were at their homes or rented rooms....the 'government' back then did not 'keep the arms' under lock and key for the militia....they carried their own arms...however,,,,it was assumed that the militia were those who agreed with the government and were able/willing/balanced in thought to make certain discernments and choices based upon a basic belief.....

vietnam and the civil unrest then, blew that ideology right out of society......it would take maybe one more generation to erase that 'mistake' and make it well again....however in the mean time there are ideologies that would never lead back to that 'root' of truth that is not ownable by anyone......that would be the obfuscation of the truth for the only purpose being control of the masses......

absolute power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely

so the militia are those accepted to be "on the same page",,,,,if we have no edumacation in discernment and the ability to learn to feed ourselves and cloth ourselves-----WHAT THE HELL FIGHT FOR.......


...you are a product of your environment, your environment is a product of your priorities, your priorities are a product of you......

The replacement of morality and conscience with law produces a deadly paradox.


STOP BEING GOOD DEMOCRATS---STOP BEING GOOD REPUBLICANS--START BEING GOOD AMERICANS

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Sombody
April 11, 2008, 8:56pm Report to Moderator
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Who does the Amendment mean by “the People”?

       Second Amendment:  A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of THE PEOPLE  to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.


Oneida Elementary K-2  Yates 3-6
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Shadow
April 12, 2008, 6:27am Report to Moderator
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In my opinion it means all the citizens of the USA.
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bumblethru
April 12, 2008, 9:33am Report to Moderator
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George Mason, father of the Bill of Rights
Quoted Text
"What is the militia?  It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them"


According to the American Civil Liberties Union, "The original intent of the Second Ammendment was to protect the right of states to maintain militias". Clearly a strange interpretation of the amendment since the Constitution had already provided for the existence of arming of a militia in Article 1, Section 8. If the framers of the Second Amendment had intended it to apply to the right of a state to maintain a militia, they would have used the word 'state' instead of 'people' like in the rest of the Bill of Rights.

Quoted Text
U.S. Constitution - Article 1 Section 8
    

Article 1 - The Legislative Branch

Section 8 - Powers of Congress

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.


Appears to be a no-brainer to me!


When the INSANE are running the ASYLUM
In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule. -- Friedrich Nietzsche


“How fortunate for those in power that people never think.”
Adolph Hitler
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Kevin March
April 15, 2008, 8:26pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Sombody
Who does the Amendment mean by “the People”?

       Second Amendment:  A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of THE PEOPLE  to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.


Individuals, in the case where it may be necessary that the people rise up against the tyrannical government.


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Sombody
April 16, 2008, 4:20am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Kevin March


Individuals, in the case where it may be necessary that the people rise up against the tyrannical government.


Amendment II
A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed-

So- would the individuals all be in the militia- or just on stand by waiting to join the militia ?


Oneida Elementary K-2  Yates 3-6
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Kevin March
April 16, 2008, 5:53pm Report to Moderator

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There are several definitions for what a militia is, however, the 4th definition on the following page is the one that I think of when I think of a militia...

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/militia

1.  civilians trained as soldiers but not part of the regular army  


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Shadow
April 16, 2008, 6:35pm Report to Moderator
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No matter how it gets spun, the state has the right to form a militia, and we the people have the right to bear arms.
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senders
April 17, 2008, 8:05am Report to Moderator
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The militia are those with like minds ready for the defense of their like minds and ideologies......ready at any given time....which means not having to go to the 'depot' to get your guns.....


...you are a product of your environment, your environment is a product of your priorities, your priorities are a product of you......

The replacement of morality and conscience with law produces a deadly paradox.


STOP BEING GOOD DEMOCRATS---STOP BEING GOOD REPUBLICANS--START BEING GOOD AMERICANS

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Shadow
April 17, 2008, 1:03pm Report to Moderator
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I'm ready all the time.
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bumblethru
April 17, 2008, 1:45pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Shadow
I'm ready all the time.

So am I!!!


When the INSANE are running the ASYLUM
In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule. -- Friedrich Nietzsche


“How fortunate for those in power that people never think.”
Adolph Hitler
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Sombody
April 22, 2008, 3:57am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Shadow
No matter how it gets spun, the state has the right to form a militia, and we the people have the right to bear arms.


Why  the spin perspective ?  Its not like our Constitution is Holy Scripture-   We are continually defining " unreasonable search and seasure " and " cruel and unusual punishment "-


Oneida Elementary K-2  Yates 3-6
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senders
April 22, 2008, 8:37pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted Text
IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America

hen in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected, whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

He has obstructed the Administration of Justice by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.

He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these united Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States, that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. — And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.

— John Hancock

New Hampshire:
Josiah Bartlett, William Whipple, Matthew Thornton

Massachusetts:
John Hancock, Samuel Adams, John Adams, Robert Treat Paine, Elbridge Gerry

Rhode Island:
Stephen Hopkins, William Ellery

Connecticut:
Roger Sherman, Samuel Huntington, William Williams, Oliver Wolcott

New York:
William Floyd, Philip Livingston, Francis Lewis, Lewis Morris

New Jersey:
Richard Stockton, John Witherspoon, Francis Hopkinson, John Hart, Abraham Clark

Pennsylvania:
Robert Morris, Benjamin Rush, Benjamin Franklin, John Morton, George Clymer, James Smith, George Taylor, James Wilson, George Ross

Delaware:
Caesar Rodney, George Read, Thomas McKean

Maryland:
Samuel Chase, William Paca, Thomas Stone, Charles Carroll of Carrollton

Virginia:
George Wythe, Richard Henry Lee, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Harrison, Thomas Nelson, Jr., Francis Lightfoot Lee, Carter Braxton

North Carolina:
William Hooper, Joseph Hewes, John Penn

South Carolina:
Edward Rutledge, Thomas Heyward, Jr., Thomas Lynch, Jr., Arthur Middleton

Georgia:
Button Gwinnett, Lyman Hall, George Walton


And our purpose at the beginning of our journey was what????

Guns dont kill people.....it might sound elementary but the fact remains that people kill people and people suffer all the time,,,maybe their suffering for the day is a cold meal at a local restaurant......then they complain, send it back, the cook 'does something' to the food and sends it back out, only to have the patron get sick with hepatitis later.......no gun involved there.......


...you are a product of your environment, your environment is a product of your priorities, your priorities are a product of you......

The replacement of morality and conscience with law produces a deadly paradox.


STOP BEING GOOD DEMOCRATS---STOP BEING GOOD REPUBLICANS--START BEING GOOD AMERICANS

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