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bumblethru
October 21, 2007, 7:16am Report to Moderator
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Quoted Text
It was in college, during a freshman-year philosophy class where he studied Bertrand Russell and Rene Descartes, that his beliefs came into sharper focus.
   “It hit me all of a sudden that of course there’s no God,” he said. “I didn’t have to put on a facade anymore.”
   Joe Sala, 62, of Clifton Park, a former altar boy, had a similar revelation while working on his doctorate in philosophy.
They just chose belief in man over faith in God. So they now believe that man and self are dieties and all knowing.

I have FAITH, that God will prove them wrong.


When the INSANE are running the ASYLUM
In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule. -- Friedrich Nietzsche


“How fortunate for those in power that people never think.”
Adolph Hitler
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I wonder if they understand that whether they think they are the 'top of the heap' or whether God is 'the top of the heap'----they have no one to blame for anything, not even 'the devil' or 'those sinners' and must take full responsibility for ALL their actions and are still required to reason,,,and how do they discern wisdom? and what is the plumb line and does it change like the wind?.......


...you are a product of your environment, your environment is a product of your priorities, your priorities are a product of you......

The replacement of morality and conscience with law produces a deadly paradox.


STOP BEING GOOD DEMOCRATS---STOP BEING GOOD REPUBLICANS--START BEING GOOD AMERICANS

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Methodist transgender minister may stay  
  
By MICHELLE LOCKE, Associated Press
Tuesday, October 30, 2007

BERKELEY, Calif. -- A council of the United Methodist Church has decided to allow a transgender minister to retain his job, but it stopped short of addressing whether a change of gender violates the denomination's rules.
  
At a session over the weekend in San Francisco, the United Methodist Judicial Council considered whether to remove the Rev. Drew Phoenix from his post. The council allowed Phoenix to stay on the job, referring to a church policy stating that a clergyperson in good standing can't be terminated unless there has been administrative or judicial action, according to the ruling, posted on the church's Web site.

"The adjective placed in front of the noun 'clergyperson' does not matter," the council ruled. "What matters is that clergypersons, once ordained and admitted to membership in full connection, cannot have that standing changed without being accorded fair process."

In a related ruling, the council said all name changes should be treated the same regardless of the reason.

Phoenix, who learned of the ruling Tuesday, said he was "happily surprised."

Before undergoing surgery and hormone therapy, Phoenix spent five years as minister at St. John's United Methodist Church in Baltimore as the Rev. Ann Gordon.

Phoenix was reappointed this spring by Bishop John Schol of the Methodists' Baltimore-Washington Annual Conference, who noted that the denomination's Book of Discipline said nothing about transgender clergy.

The United Methodist Church bars appointing "practicing" gay clergy and does not support same-sex unions. The issue of whether the church can have a transgender minister may yet be addressed by the church's legislative body, which meets next spring in Fort Worth, Texas.

Phoenix said he has sometimes been discouraged by negative reaction to his status but thinks that staying on the job is a way to change minds.

"I've always been hopeful that the church will open its doors more and be more inclusive of the community, and I believe that happens when those of us that are in that community just keep showing up," he said.

The judicial council met without its president, surgeon general nominee James Holsinger.

Holsinger, a Kentucky doctor who has been criticized by gay rights groups for such things as a 1991 paper in which he says gay sex was unnatural and unhealthy, bowed out of the meeting, saying his nomination could become a distraction.


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Jury awards father $11M in funeral case  
  
By ALEX DOMINGUEZ, Associated Press
Wednesday, October 31, 2007

BALTIMORE -- A grieving father won a nearly $11 million verdict Wednesday against a fundamentalist Kansas church that pickets military funerals out of a belief that the war in Iraq is a punishment for the nation's tolerance of homosexuality.
  
Albert Snyder of York, Pa., sued the Westboro Baptist Church for unspecified damages after members demonstrated at the March 2006 funeral of his son, Lance Cpl. Matthew Snyder, who was killed in Iraq.

The federal jury first awarded $2.9 million in compensatory damages. It returned in the afternoon with its decision to award $6 million in punitive damages for invasion of privacy and $2 million for causing emotional distress.

Snyder's attorney, Craig Trebilcock, had urged jurors to determine an amount "that says don't do this in Maryland again. Do not bring your circus of hate to Maryland again."

The defense said it planned to appeal, and one of the church's leaders, Shirley Phelps-Roper, said the members would continue to picket military funerals.

"Absolutely; don't you understand this was an act in futility?" Phelps-Roper said.

Church members routinely picket funerals of military personnel killed in Iraq and Afghanistan, carrying signs such as "Thank God for dead soldiers" and "God hates fags."

Snyder claimed the protests intruded upon what should have been a private ceremony and sullied his memory of the event.

The church members testified they are following their religious beliefs by spreading the message that soldiers are dying because the nation is too tolerant of homosexuality.

Their attorneys maintained in closing arguments Tuesday that the burial was a public event and that even abhorrent points of view are protected by the First Amendment, which guarantees freedom of speech and religion.

A number of states have passed laws regarding funeral protests, and Congress has passed a law prohibiting such protests at federal cemeteries. But the Maryland lawsuit is believed to be the first filed by the family of a fallen serviceman.

The church and three of its leaders -- Fred Phelps and his two daughters, Phelps-Roper and Rebekah Phelps-Davis, 46 -- were found liable for invasion of privacy and intent to inflict emotional distress.

The group is confident the award will be overturned on appeal, Phelps said

"Oh, it will take about five minutes to get that thing reversed," he said.

Earlier, church members staged a demonstration outside the federal courthouse. Phelps held a sign reading "God is your enemy," while Phelps-Roper stood on an American flag and carried a sign that read "God hates f** enablers." Members of the group sang "God Hates America" to the tune of "God Bless America."

Snyder sobbed when he heard the verdict, while members of the church greeted the news with tightlipped smiles.

It was unclear whether the plaintiffs would be able to collect the damages awarded.

Before the jury began deliberating the size of punitive damages, U.S. District Judge Richard Bennett noted that the size of the compensatory award "far exceeds the net worth of the defendants," according to financial statements filed with the court.

Defense lawyer Jonathan Katz said the church has about 75 members and is funded by tithing.

The defense attorney said that the assets of the church and the three defendants are less than a million dollars and that the compensatory award is about three times the defendants' net worth, mainly in homes, cars and retirement accounts.
One of Snyder's attorneys, Sean Summers, said he would tirelessly seek payment of the award.

"We will chase them forever if it takes that long," Summers said.

(This version CORRECTS the spelling of one of the church leader's names to Rebekah, instead of Rebecca.)
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BIGK75
November 1, 2007, 5:38am Report to Moderator
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I am so happy to see these people get sued and losing.  I hope they keep going, have the same fee attached to it, yet also have to pay for all the lawyers.
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Iowa churches
fight gay marriage

   DES MOINES, Iowa — From prayer rallies to political advocacy, Iowa churches are at the forefront of an escalating fi ght over a county judge’s ruling that overturned the state’s same-sex marriage ban.
   About 1,200 people from local churches joined hands and sang the civil rights anthem “We Shall Overcome” at a recent rally urging the Iowa Supreme Court to reverse the judge’s decision.
   “This is more than a political battle,” said the Rev. Keith A. Ratliff Sr. of the Maple Street Missionary Baptist Church. “This is a spiritual battle.”
   Polk County District Judge Robert Hanson ruled on Aug. 31 that a state law defining marriage as only between a man and woman was unconstitutional and ordered the Polk County recorder to allow same-sex couples to marry.
   The next day, Hanson stayed his ruling while the case is appealed to the state Supreme Court, which could take two years. Only one couple was able to marry — the ceremony was performed in a Unitarian pastor’s front yard — before Hanson suspended his ruling.
   The state’s four Roman Catholic dioceses, meantime, are calling for a different fix — a constitutional amendment that would define marriage as solely between a man and a woman.
   “Marriage between a man and a woman is a good from the perspectives of both natural law and our Catholic faith,” according to a statement from the Iowa Catholic Conference.



  
  
  

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BIGK75
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About 1,200 people from local churches joined hands and sang the civil rights anthem “We Shall Overcome” at a recent rally urging the Iowa Supreme Court to reverse the judge’s decision.



Funny, they're considered different at this point, trying to fight for the same rights as others.  Isn't it interesting that they're so "different" that they can't even come up with their own song?  Isn't this like an election where the incumbent isn't running and you say that you'll do things exactly like they did?
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Those who talk with God aren’t delusional

   As one of those “delusional” people who talk to Jesus every day, I would like to respond to Michael Foster’s Oct. 29 letter.
   During the time I spent talking to my savior this morning, I thanked him for all of the millions of other delusional people in this world who intercede for me and all other members of God’s family who call on them day or night when we are in need of prayer.
   I thank God for the blessing of knowing and serving with [Rev.] Alan Hart in different ministries [Oct. 21 Gazette]. I know him to be a very accepting and loving person who has a servant’s heart. If you don’t believe me, then just show up at Christ Church in Schenectady on the last Sunday of the month.
   Mr. Foster, I cannot tell you what Jesus says to Alan, but I will let you in on what he told me this morning when I was talking to him. He told me that as a member of his family, he commands me to love my neighbor as myself. He didn’t say only those who know him. He told me to hate the sin, but love the sinner because I am a sinner. He told me that he not only prayed for those who knew and loved him, but for those who did not, and that is what he is calling his church (the whole body of Christ) to do. He told me that I am loved, regardless of my many faults. He told me that he would always walk beside me, and even carry the weight of my burdens, if I would only surrender them to him.
   I do not know Rev. Linda Hoddy [Oct. 13 Gazette], nor do I pretend to know much about the Unitarian Church, but unless I misunderstood the title “Rev.” then I would venture to guess that she has been delusional more than once and has spoken to God. So we are more alike than we are different in our beliefs. Regardless of whether you talk to just God the father or to God the father and God the son, I believe that all of us make the one true God smile when he hears our voice.
DEBBIE BISNER
West Charlton
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QUESTION OF THEOLOGY
Carl Strock

   A reader challenges me to answer the tricky theological question, Who does Jesus pray to? So here I am, on the spot, a humble layman with a shelf of books but no divinity degree.
   The question arises from material that ran in this newspaper, beginning with an article about a Unitarian minister who was quoted as saying she regards Jesus as a “great religious leader” rather than the son of God.
   That prompted an indignant letter from a minister in Scotia who insisted that Jesus still lives. “I was just talking to him a few minutes ago and intend to speak to him many more times today,” the minister wrote.
   Then a second person wrote: “If this is not delusional, then why doesn’t he let us know what Jesus had to say …?”
   And then a third person wrote, saying that he talks to Jesus too and that just this very morning, “He [meaning Jesus] told me that he not only prayed for those who knew him and loved him, but for those who did not,” and so on, which is what prompted my correspondent to wonder who Jesus prays to and to ask me to get on the case.
   Well, it’s a dodgy business even for someone who has a passing familiarity with what H.L. Mencken used to call the ghostly science, but first I promise I will not get into the debate over whether someone who talks to Jesus is delusional.
   It’s well established that if you claim to be in communication with invisible beings like gremlins or Martians or the ghost of Julius Caesar you are a mental case and need close watching, but if you claim to be in communication with invisible beings classified as religious then you’re a solid citizen suitable for elected office. Our very president has claimed to be carrying out the wishes of an invisible being (“the Almighty”) in his adventures in the Middle East.
   When it comes to Jesus praying, we confront the doctrine of the Trinity, which holds, according to the Nicene Creed, that Jesus the son is “consubstantial” with God the father. Or according to another creed, “The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God.”
   How this can be, no mortal is privileged to know. In the teaching of the Catholic Church it’s a mystery, meaning a truth “hidden by the veil of faith and enveloped, so to speak, by a kind of darkness,” as the Vatican Council put it.
   But to the point: If Jesus is distinct from God and yet the same as God, can he pray to God?
   My decision: You are free to give any answer that satisfies your fancy, simply because we are operating in a realm different from the realm of demonstrable facts — though of course in times past a wrong answer would have caused you to be strangled, burned at the stake, or have your tongue pulled out.
   Nowadays things are more relaxed, at least in the Judeo-Christian world, and you can say what you please. You can answer that it’s logically absurd for Jesus to pray since he is already God and would only be praying to himself, or you can say, yes, he prays to His Father, or you can say whatever else strikes you, and no one will pull your tongue out, and no one will send you to the nut house either.
   It’s one of the great charms of theology: You can assert anything at all as indisputable truth, and no one can prove you wrong. If your church objects you can just fi nd another church, or even found one, for that matter. And if someone asks you to explain yourself you can just say it’s a matter of faith, enveloped by darkness, and if they don’t like it they can go to Hades and burn for eternity. There are no rules, and any number can play — in fact have been playing, for centuries and centuries.
   End of today’s lesson.
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BIGK75
November 19, 2007, 1:25pm Report to Moderator
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Well, since the Bible is a flawless book, and it in, Jesus prayed to God, then I think I have my answer, Mr. Strock's opinion not withstanding.
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bumblethru
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Well, since the Bible is a flawless book, and it in, Jesus prayed to God, then I think I have my answer, Mr. Strock's opinion not withstanding.
Ditto!!



When the INSANE are running the ASYLUM
In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule. -- Friedrich Nietzsche


“How fortunate for those in power that people never think.”
Adolph Hitler
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Cardinals discuss
Pentecostal threat


   VATICAN CITY — The Roman Catholic Church must figure out what it is doing wrong in the battle for souls, because so many Catholics are leaving the church to join Pentecostal and other evangelical movements, a top Vatican cardinal said Friday.
   Cardinal Walter Kasper, who heads the Vatican’s office for relations with other Christians, told a meeting of the world’s cardinals that the church must undergo a “self-critical pastoral examination of conscience” to confront the “exponential” rise of Pentecostal movements.
   “We shouldn’t begin by asking ourselves what is wrong with the Pentecostals, but what our own pastoral shortcomings are,” Kasper told the gathering, noting that such evangelical and charismatic groups count 400 million faithful around the world.  



  
  
  
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bumblethru
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Cardinals discuss
Pentecostal threat

   VATICAN CITY — The Roman Catholic Church must figure out what it is doing wrong in the battle for souls, because so many Catholics are leaving the church to join Pentecostal and other evangelical movements, a top Vatican cardinal said Friday.
   Cardinal Walter Kasper, who heads the Vatican’s office for relations with other Christians, told a meeting of the world’s cardinals that the church must undergo a “self-critical pastoral examination of conscience” to confront the “exponential” rise of Pentecostal movements.
   “We shouldn’t begin by asking ourselves what is wrong with the Pentecostals, but what our own pastoral shortcomings are,” Kasper told the gathering, noting that such evangelical and charismatic groups count 400 million faithful around the world.
And this is a prime example of WHY so many are leaving the Catholic faith. Just read this article. It is like a Wal-Mart wondering why their faithful shoppers are going to Target. This is truly a disgrace to any religious faith. Sadly, I see the Catholic Church as nothing short of a corporation trying to control the sheeple. Well people are beginning to 'think for themselves' now and are finding out that there is no such thing as 'religion'.....it is a 'relationship' with God. And not to be dictated by a pope, cardinal or priest. It is an individual relationship between you and the Almighty. And no man should come between that relationship. In fact it should be encouraged.

And I use to be Catholic.


When the INSANE are running the ASYLUM
In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule. -- Friedrich Nietzsche


“How fortunate for those in power that people never think.”
Adolph Hitler
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senders
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Quoted Text
A reader challenges me to answer the tricky theological question, Who does Jesus pray to? So here I am, on the spot, a humble layman with a shelf of books but no divinity degree.


Prayer is a 2way conversation....Jesus prayed to himself---- therefore giving rise to introspection and the need for humankind to take in, weigh and re-weigh incidents/problem/issues/self etc before making choices/decisions...and not just fly about like an animal----that is why we are the top of the food chain.....

If you cant have a comfortable conversation with yourself who can you confidently converse with????


...you are a product of your environment, your environment is a product of your priorities, your priorities are a product of you......

The replacement of morality and conscience with law produces a deadly paradox.


STOP BEING GOOD DEMOCRATS---STOP BEING GOOD REPUBLICANS--START BEING GOOD AMERICANS

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Multiple menorahs
Hanukkah lamps vary in design, often given at pivotal moments

BY ALISON LAPP The Associated Press

   Deborah Raice Fox didn’t set out to collect menorahs. The menorahs came to her.
   Now she has upwards of 20 — some for display, others for lighting.
   Over the years, many Jewish families find themselves accumulating more menorahs than family members. The Hanukkah lamps arrive in the form of gifts for pivotal life moments like bar and bat mitzvahs and weddings.
   “I think most people get a lot [of menorahs] inadvertently,” Raice Fox said. “I didn’t wake up one day and say, ’I want to be a menorah collector,’ but as you progress in years, your collection becomes more dramatic and unique.”
   The inspiration for the ritual of lighting the lamps goes back more than 1,800 years to a battle in which ancient Israelis reclaimed a temple from the ruling Greeks, spurring eight days of festivities. The Hanukkah holiday, which this year begins Tuesday night, now involves lighting a candle for eight continuous days, and menorahs are often passed from generation to generation.
   Jennie Rivlin Roberts noticed many young Jews acquiring multiple menorahs on their own, to suit their more modern tastes, and started an online company, ModernTribe.com, selling “hip Judaica.”
   She says the nadir of menorah design was in the 1980s, when brassy models were popular.
   “I have a really ugly brass menorah from my family,” she said. “I take it out every year and light it, but it’s not at all my aesthetic taste.”
   Early American lamps were revivals of European Baroque or Rococo styles, said Susan Braunstein, curator at the Jewish Museum in New York. Green patinated imports from Israel became available in the 1940s, and after World War II, descendants of the sleek Bauhaus style became common.
MODERN FLAIR
   Today’s menorahs have more modern flair. Israeli designer Shlomi Schillinger created coneshaped models and a series of cubes that can be assembled in different patterns.
   “The playful part of Hanukkah I experienced as a child — spinning dreidels, chocolate coins, great sweet food — I try to put in my menorah designs,” Schillinger said in an e-mail. “I don’t know why so much Judaica must be so unfashionable.”
SOUTHERN COMFORT
   Gloria Bein, exhibit chairwoman at the Emanuel Synagogue in West Hartford, Conn., said one of her favorite menorahs harkens back to when she was the only Jewish woman living in a development in Florence, S.C.
   “People weren’t very friendly at all,” she said, and so she organized a health care group that provided crutches to people who needed them.
   “After a few years, I got a knock on my door and a group of women was giving me [a menorah] with a wreath of peace design,” she said.
   “They were showing me I was finally accepted.”
   Her friend, Matthew Tovian, offered his own menorah to the synagogue’s holiday display, she said. She was inclined to reject the crude wooden lamp until she learned he had constructed it in a concentration camp, so he and other incarcerated men could worship when the guards weren’t around.
BEAUTIFUL SIGHT
   Raice Fox said owning many menorahs has practical applications, allowing every member of the family and guests to light their own lamp for Hanukkah.
   “We clear out a window for them, and with 10 menorahs lit, it’s a very beautiful sight for us while we sing,” she said.
   Those oft-lit menorahs return to the closet after the final day of Hanukkah, but the art lamps remain out all year long among the Seder plates, Kiddush cups and spice containers that fill out her Judaica collection.
   “By leaving them out, there is an immediate statement when people walk in,” she said. “This is a Jewish home.”
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